Chainsaw Repair
Chain - Grinders - Filing - Wood Milling - Tools - Welding - Machinist - Mowers - Tillers => Chain - Bars - Grinders - Filing => Topic started by: 660magnum on December 01, 2012, 05:52:01 pm
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I recently purchased a older used Silvey Swing Arm Grinder. It was made in late 1979. It appears that the grinder has sat around unused since the 1980's? It had gone though a couple hands between the original owner and when I got it but they didn't use it or harm it.
The grinder has sat around for years and apparently at the original location got spritzed with little speckles of something that appears to be brown mud or something from a cow when it got up? This swing arm grinder was originally a bright red on the main body and the arm was anodized gold. Most of this color is gone now. Part of the pivot bearing on the swing arm was broken by uneven pressure from a split type lock washer? I got new bearings for the swing arm from the local Grainger outlet as they were 1/3 the price of the local Applied Industrial (Bearings Inc). I removed the split lock washer and replaced the 5/8" retaining nut with a self locking nut like is on the current Silvey swing arm grinder. I replaced all the bolts with Allen head bolts and got new springs for the stops at the local hardware store down the street. Running the motor, the bearings sounded good and the new grinding wheel I bought from Silvey ran true.
The swing arm pivot bolt has adjusting set screws at the top to **** the arm left or right. I attempted to set these screws so the arm would be the same height from the grinding wheel on both sides. I started to dress the wheel and one of the wing nuts where you turn the diamond dressers (in and out) came off because the dresser was hard to turn. The wing nut was just attached to the dresser with J-B Weld. I put a collar on it for now. I dressed the wheel to the angles that the dressers were set at. They appeared to never have been moved in years and the resulting angle on the grinding wheel came out realistic according to what I had read.
I then made a 60DL 72LGX square (3/8" X 16"). When I swung around to do the left hand cutters, I had to adjust the chain stop about 1/2 turn. I was apprehensive about this but cannot measure any difference left-right on the chain teeth. The chain stops on this grinder are just made from 1/4" square key stock. But many years ago, some kid messed with the grinder and ruined the left stop by running it into the wheel along the inside edge back about 1". I dressed the ends of the stops some with a raker file but you cannot go back 1". So I have to hold the stops over towards the wheel to get them to hold the chain cutter in the right place. So it is on my list to make new stops for the grinder some day?
The resulting chain turned out nice with a 18 degree outside top angle and 88 degrees on the side. The inside was around 43-44 degrees. This is within the realm of acceptability for a square chain. I measured a factory Oregon 72CL chain and I got 16 degrees on the top plate, 86 degrees on the side, and 55 degrees on the inside top. So the Oregon 72CL as a little more lead on the vertical and the cutting edge is more blunt. I then measured the dressed grinding stone and the top angle was 25 degrees and the side angle was 75 degrees from horizontal. These were the dresser settings on the grinder when I received it and appeared to have been in that position forever?
This swing arm grinder is a Silvey "R". There is just a minor difference between it and and the original Simington 450 grinder. The differences are the chain holding disk has a hub instead of a thick washer on the Simington and the squareness of the arm's pivot bolt is adjustable on the Silvey. They have the same motor and the stop mechanism is identical. The motor is just a 1700 rpm open split phase Dayton motor from Grainger but it is ball bearing.
Sometime in the later 70's, Elmer Silvey sold the Silvey Swing arm design, patents and all, to Jack Simington. So from 1982 until this century, Silvey did not make a swing arm grinder. And . . . Silvey doesn't have any parts for the early version either unless there is some part from the current design that happens to fit like the grinding wheel or the stand.
Simington went on to also make a variation of the Simington 450 that works like a Silvey Razur Sharp. Later, Simington sold the grinder business and it went through several hands. The last model is the 451C and the 451's have a more sophisticated arm design. There are a few other subtle changes to the stand mount and a hex seat for the pivot bolt head. You can still buy new Silvey's except for the Pro Sharp. Simingtons, I understand are made by Salt Creek Industries in Lakeview Washington but I have not seen any new ones advertised?
At one point when Simingtons were not being made and the patents had expired, Silvey brought out a new swing arm grinder. At first glance, the only difference is new chain stops on the swing arm but Silvey tells me that the center to center dimensions are all different and the major parts will not interchange.
I get the idea that there was never a tremendous market for square grinders with a probable volume of a half dozen/year for the swing arms at its peak?
The Swing arm grinder is simple. The early ones - except for the two main castings, everything is simple to replicate or purchase from many sources. The mounting flange for the grinding wheel can be raised or lowered to effect different angles. The dressing angles on the wheel can be changed to effect the top plate angle or side plate angles. The position of the chain holder can be moved forwards or backwards to effect the interior vertical as well as the wheel raised or lowered to affect the interior angles. If you study and think about all these and perhaps write down the inter-relationships, you can make a race chain or a work chain or change back and forth. However, there are no degree or position markings on anything so you will have to measure and document your angles with a angle finder.
I bought this Angle Finder at Lowe's some 25 yrs ago for $4 and it is close enough for setting your grinder.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/toolsplus_2240_35285721.jpg)
If you read Masden's or Silvey's literature on the different grinders, they refer to the Swing Arm Grinder as a entry level grinder and if you want to make all different kinds of angles on chain, you need the Pro Sharp. With the Pro Sharp, The angles of the dressers have markings as does the height of the chain holders. So with your personal documentation, and a nice angle finder, you can also do what ever you want to with the swing arm? The more expensive grinders have a high parts count. The ones with sliding chain holders have potential wear points that must be kept up with? After studying the different grinders, the swing arm is the K-I-S-S system. If you always do the same grind, it is a set and forget situation with nothing to wear out except the wheel. The chain stops on these more expensive grinders are better in that they have a notch in the end that fits the top corner of the cutter rather than the bottom. This serves to hold the front of the cutter down when you contact the grinding wheel.
All the operator's manuals are available on the Silvey, Madsen's and Bailey's websites as .pdf's. If you read the one for the swing arm it is rather skimpy. Actually what is said is concise and what really matters but if you are new to swing arm grinders, you will want to know more. Have a look at the manuals for the more expensive grinders as they go into a little more detail and what might interest you is how to dress the grinding wheel. Be easy with the dressers and start from the corner out. When the corner looks dirty, it is time for a light dressing of the wheel. Some of the cause and effect relationships are explained in these other manuals.
If you want to get into square chisel chain grinders, you need to be a person that studies and documents all the cause and effect relationships
with your own grinder and the chain. Know what works and what doesn't. Don't be like the kid at the chain saw shop that grinds away half of every chain at the same angles and has no concept of what he is doing and could care less.
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Man, Thanks for all that leg work and info. 8)
Have you tested any of your square off the grinder against a known square off something else yet?
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Dennis Cahoon's Simington 450 swing arm square grinder. The picture is from the Internet.
What Dennis is pointing to in the first picture is where someone before him milled a slot in the arm so you can change the inside angles on the 450.
They also put a slot in the mounting plate in the second picture to raise and lower the chain relative to the grinding wheel.
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Man, Thanks for all that leg work and info. 8)
Have you tested any of your square off the grinder against a known square off something else yet?
No I have not but measuring angles and comparing with a 20" loop of Oregon CL that came from you, I see no reason why it would not run good.
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This is my old style 1979 Silvey Swing Arm grinder as purchased.
I'll try to get my camera going with some current pictures?
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Wow! Cool pictures.... Does it have a stand?
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I bought an original stand from Silvey.
The later Simington 451's have a socket cast into the main frame to receive a 1 1/4" water pipe with a 1/4 - 20 set screw to hold it in place.
this makes a stand simple for you can just take an old wheel rim or even an old tire and fill it with concrete with the pipe square in place and you have a stand.
The Silvey Razur Sharp and Swing Arm as well as the Simington 450's just have a 1/2" bolt hole in the main frame so you need something flat and about 4" sq and 3/8" thick to bolt the grinder to. I didn't have any steel plate and arc welder handy so I just bought a genuine Silvey stand. I had a stand on hand but the top plate is only 1/8" and there was no way to get inside the pipe with a nut.
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I really like the concept of the swing arm.
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Old Simington 450's. Take notice that there is almost no difference between it and the early Silvey swing arm grinder
In the second picture, the grinder is mounted on a HD camera tripod which may have cost as much as the grinder when new?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/simington450.png)
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Simington 451A that some one butchered by cutting around the motor bolt holes so the motor could be shimmed up or down to change the cutter angle.
You can just raise and lower the arm to do the same thing or the wheel can be raised or lowered. To raise of lower the wheel, you have to remove the wheel and there is a set screw in the hub. The hub will most likely be stuck and you will have to heat it and use a puller to get it started moving. Keep up with where you are at with the wheel position.
Notice the different detail on the arm whereby it can be raised or lowered or the chain can be moved forward or backward. The arm can pivot up and down with the bolt down underneath.
You can also see the socket for the 1 1/4" pipe of the stand.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/Simington451A_B.jpg)
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You can get grinding wheels for these from Silvey, Bailey's, or Madsens. Bailey's is a little more expensive than the others on grind wheels.
There are several 8" wheels available. The standard wheel is the Salmon wheel but you can get gray and white ones too. There is a blue wheel that costs twice as much but it lasts longer that Bailey's sells.
http://silveychaingrinder.com/
http://www.madsens1.com/mnu_grindjack.htm
http://www.baileysonline.com/search.asp?catid=9760&skw=silvey%20grinder
I have pictures of the Simington 450 and 451B grinder instructions if anyone is interested but I will have to Email them to you.
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My early model 1979 Silvey Swing Arm Grinder that at one time had a red body, (Now mostly natural - as cast - aluminum.) and what was originally a gold anodized arm. It has a new salmon grinding wheel from Silvey. Most of the fasteners and all the springs are new from the local hardware down the street but the diamond dressers are the original as well as the motor and switch. The original cord had been replaced by the previous owner.
Simplicity itself.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/PC200004_zpsa3386510.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/PC200005_zps69be3bbd.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/PC200006_zpse62f36b3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/PC200007_zps7f7d62fa.jpg)
The new Silvey Swing Arm grinders have a different motor with small vent holes around the sides that is bolted on differently. Also the chain holder on the new style can be raised up and down.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveySwingArmSA_zps8ae7e7e1.png)
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Notice in the pictures of these different grinders, they all use the same size 8" wheel, but you see a gray one, a white grinding wheel and a couple salmon color wheels. The white is easy to see but disappears faster than the others. Silvey recommends the salmon wheel which you can get from Silvey, or all of them from Bailey's or Madsens.
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Here are a series of Silvey Prosharp Square Chain Grinder Details. This is more or less considered a Cadillac of The Silvey Product Line. It is not currently produced and carries a possible $2,000 price tag. This grinder is not set up on a stand or mounted against the wall for use but is laying on its side on a table.
To pull up on the lever places the chain cutter tooth into position at the grinding wheel. There is a cable arrangement actuated by the slide that pulls on a lever of the chain vice to hold the chain steady. Then you turn the crank to feed the chain cutter into grind wheel. This action presents the whole dressed surface of the grinding wheel to the chain tooth at once. This lets the all important dressed corner last much longer than on the swing arm grinder whose feed action makes the top of the dressed corner do all the work in grinding the inner face of the top plate as it wipes across the under surface. This is a feature of the Pro Sharp and SDM4 that makes them shine over the Razur Sharp II and Swing Arm versions.
There are pre-set marks for the dressers and all the other angles to make work chains or race chains. But you still have to make sure that the dressed working corner of the grinding wheel meets exactly the outer corner of the cutter on the chain.
I would like to mention here that there is a fourth Silvey grinder design (SDM-4) that has chain rail holders like the Pro sharp. But there are two of them and it is more or less a cross between the Pro Sharp and the Razur Sharp II. The chain rails are fastened on slide mechanisms and are fed into the grinding wheel a little like on the Razur Sharp II but the grinding wheel is mounted up at an angle.
The Pro Sharp chain rail assembly will pivot left and right for the opposing cutters. The motor is reversible.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/prosharp.jpg)
Silvey Prosharp Grinder Chain Holder Detail Showing Over All Chain Holder Mechanism Detail
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyProSharp1_zpsfcf38ee6.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyProSharp2_zps34c1e22a.jpg)
Silvey Prosharp Grinding Wheel Mounting - salmon, 8" X 3/16" X 1" hole
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyProSharp3_zps1f73af2d.jpg)
Silvey Prosharp Grinder Showing Preset Marks For Adjustment
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyProSharp4_zps7c9d1365.jpg)
Silvey Prosharp Grinder Slide Detail showing where vice cable attaches under slide mechanism
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyProSharp5_zps4d663994.jpg)
Silvey Prosharp Motor And Dresser Detail. The big black knob is to swing the top plate dresser across the grinding wheel.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyProSharp6_zps5686fd80.jpg)
Silvey Prosharp Chain Grinder Detail showing a glimpse of the cable from the slide mechanism to the chain vice.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyProSharp7_zps06f8632b.jpg)
Silvey Prosharp Showing Typical Marks For Preset chain Grinding Angles Specific to the Prosharp Line Of Grinders
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyProSharp8_zps057e0439.jpg)
Silvey Prosharp Showing Angle Of Grinding Wheel To Chain Cutter Tooth and where vice cable enters vice area from the slide area.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyProSharp9_zps47964954.jpg)
Silvey Prosharp Gib Adjustments, return spring and orther details of the slide mechanism
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyProSharp10_zpsce830f16.jpg)
Silvey Prosharp Grinder Over All Detail Under Chain Holder
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyProSharp11_zps1f397ab9.jpg)
Silvey Prosharp close up Grinder Motor which is used on all the current Silvey square grinders.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyProSharp12_zps94776928.jpg)
Here are a couple short videos showing the Pro Sharp and SDM-4 in action to give you an idea how they work.
http://www.madsens1.com/GRAPHICS/Silvey/Prosharp.wmv
http://www.madsens1.com/GRAPHICS/Silvey/sdm4.wmv
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/sdm4.jpg)
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That's the best pictures I've seen of a pro sharp. I would like one but never would come off with the money.
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Here are a series of Silvey Razur Sharp II Square Chain Grinder Pictures. The grinder is more related to the swing arm grinder than the Pro Sharp series. The Razur Sharp differs from the swing arm in that it has two separate chain holders. One on each side. You sharpen the right hand cutters on one side and then move the chain over to the other side to do the left hand cutters. The chain holders are mounted on a common slide mechanism fed by a single lever on the end of the machine. This grinder is commonly mounted on a tripod style stand. Actually, the grinder is light enough that it can be moved out of the way when not needed. This particular one is not mounted on a stand but is setting on a piece of slab wood on a big rock. It was moved out doors for the pictures.
Silvey Razur Sharp II Square Grinder Over All View from Feed End.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyRazursharpA_zps7678ac21.jpg)
Silvey Razur Sharp II Top View from the mounting end. Note the mounting hole at the bottom of the picture where the grinder assembly mounts on the stand. Also take note of the off-on switch mounted on the motor. Typically, the switch is pulled towards you when you are in the operator's position to make the grinding wheel turn in the proper direction to approach the cutter tooth you are sharpening from the outside. I this picture you can see the two grinding wheel dressers. There's one for the edge of the wheel that shapes the side of the chain cutter tooth and there's one for the top of the wheel that forms the top plate angle on the chain's cutter tooth.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyRazursharpD_zpsdf791beb.jpg)
Silvey grinder mounting stand for Razur Sharp II and Swing Arm Grinders. This is a older model and not the current design shown in the downloadable operator manuals.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyRazurSharpIIF_zps954b70c2.jpg)
Silver Razur Sharp II and disassembled stand
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyRazurSharpIIA_zpse5ccde5a.jpg)
Silvey Razur Sharp II showing detail of adjustment to compensate for grinding wheel wear. Look at some of the over all pictures to take note of this bolt's location.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyRazurSharpeIIB_zps183d6213.jpg)
Silvey Razur Sharp II grinder showing slide assembly, bellows type dust guard, feed stops, and chain stop adjustments. The feed handle extends from the bottom center of the picture. This lever is also shown a couple pictures above this one.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyRazursharpH_zps868308cc.jpg)
Silvey Razur Sharp II showing right hand chain holder detail including chain stop and adjustment, and feed stop adjustment knob. This assembly is duplicated in reverse on the other side of the grinder for the left hand cutters.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/SilveyRazursharpG_zps3c1e656b.jpg)
Simington S-495 Grinder made like a Silvey Razur Sharp I. Notice the "Blue Wheel" that cost twice as much as a Salmon wheel and lasts a little longer.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/5956d1055978155-simington-square-gr.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/6180d1057951774-simington-495-jpg.jpg)
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Using a late model Silvey Swing Arm grinder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnqpq2-cubc
This is SRCarr's Razur Sharp II after he trued up everything and made a new slide using cam followers on a red neck milling machine using a heavy drill press and a HF feed table.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WD4MaAfSwM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPypqFbI_vk
Brad Snelling's Razur Sharp II grinder. Notice where someone has run the chain stops into the wheel . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5g8TyXUDHs
Rich Dougan the Chainsaw Guy and his ZygMyer square grinder. Take notice that this grinder has a mist type cooling system to keep the chain tooth cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSHiIb2Tgwg
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Somebody is reading and learning this stuff big time. 8)
I dont think I am smart enough to use them there fancy square grinders. :P
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One glimpse at the grinding wheel in these pictures tells me that the all important corner is dull and needs to have the dirty color lightly dressed from the corner and another light pass taken on the cutters before the chain sharpening is finished. I can tell that the top angle on the stone is dull because it has a dirty look to it right at the corner.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/simington450.png)
Even watching this video of the German sharpener, I can see the grinding wheel is dirty in the corner as Rich is taking pretty healthy cuts on the chain. He will need to touch up the stone and make a light pass on the chain before it is finished. You will notice that the top side of the corner gets dull first as it has to do the most cutting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSHiIb2Tgwg
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Very nice presentation 660magnum. It is great reading and full of lots of good information. I would like to have a square grinder but I am not up for the kind of money it takes.
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Keep on the look out for a used grinder. There have been a lot of old swing arms to go in the $200+ area in recent times. They are actually pretty simple devices with the only sophisticated parts being the main frame and arm castings and you can often get the parts to fix them locally or even have a local machinist make you a part.
I wasn't actually looking very hard for the one I have. My grinder was listed on "the bay" and didn't sell - when the owner mentioned, on here, that he wanted to sell it and here is the Silvey swing arm grinder - all refurbished.
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Very nice presentation 660magnum. It is great reading and full of lots of good information. I would like to have a square grinder but I am not up for the kind of money it takes.
Simington 450 with a 451 motor - asking $300?
http://boise.craigslist.org/tls/3454810610.html
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I hate it when these things show up right with the holidays and you have spent your limit.
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I hate it when these things show up right with the holidays and you have spent your limit.
I seen that the other day. I really don't need it but it would look good between my RZ II and a silvey 600 round grinder. :D
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I hate it when these things show up right with the holidays and you have spent your limit.
I think that is why a lot of stuff goes up for sale.
I mean dang guys are unloading the saws left and right. Some people must really be hurting out there IMO.
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I hate it when these things show up right with the holidays and you have spent your limit.
I seen that the other day. I really don't need it but it would look good between my RZ II and a silvey 600 round grinder. :D
A couple years ago you had a new Silvey Swing Arm?
(http://chainsawrepair.createaforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1333.0;attach=2054;image)
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I sold the swing arm and got a RZ II. I liked the swing arm for the simplicity and how quick to sharpen work chain. I wouldn't mind having one to do work chain on with the RZ for trying to make fast chains.
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Using my swing arm, I consider it could really work great doing the same work chain angles all the time.
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The setup is quicker on the swing arm. The dual chain holders is a pain to get them perfectly aligned so both sides are exactly the same. I had to get an angle finder to do it.
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I seen that the other day. I really don't need it but it would look good between my RZ II and a silvey 600 round grinder. :D
Must be nice. Maybe one of these days the right time and place I will get one.
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Well I've got way less than a new swing arm in both of these. I sold the swing arm and bought 2 RZ II for $540 and the 600 for 500 rounds of wolf 223 ammo. The deals are out there like that simington. If I didn't buy a few other things already I would have it here.
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This is SRCarr's Razur Sharp II after he trued up everything and made a new slide using cam followers on a red neck milling machine using a heavy drill press and a HF feed table.
I'm hoping Uncle Sam will give me enough back in the spring such that I can upgrade to a real milling machine. For now... the cross-slide table works, small bites at a time.
I like the idea of a mist coolant for those rocked chains. The extra heat breaks down the epoxy in the wheel and causes more wear. Also the coolant might fight the stone loading issue. I still think you'd have to at least dress the lower face when changing grind directions as the salmon stone I use seems to seal over and will only cut one direction until re-dressing.
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I still think you'd have to at least dress the lower face when changing grind directions as the salmon stone I use seems to seal over and will only cut one direction until re-dressing.
This may be a very significant observation to remember?
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Nice Silvey Razur Sharp II for sale in Montana? I say nice by it still has paint on the handle.
http://missoula.craigslist.org/tls/3506960891.html
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That one is real nice looking. A few have tried to contact the seller with no response yet.
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Nice Silvey Razur Sharp II for sale in Montana?
http://missoula.craigslist.org/tls/3506960891.html
I don't see any boots on the slide which is a good indication that it is worn completely out. If not it will be soon running it without boots.
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Good catch . . . .
For sure, no boots or bad boots, and the slides are worthless in no time.
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Since the first of the year, Silvey Chain Grinder Company has shut down at first claiming like it was a seasonal thing but it turned out to be for a undetermined amount of time?
The folks where the Simington 451C grinder is made have jumped on the band wagon and thrown up a website with some nice videos with owner Kelly Peile demonstrating and trouble shooting the Simington 451C. It is nice to see Kelly's ideas of how to tune up a swing arm grinder and some of the cause and effect relationships. Kelly has a nice, easy going manner and is easy to understand. Though he doesn't give exact settings, angles, or dimensions, he does express his ideas of the inter reactions of various adjustments on the grinder. I think that it is important that all of us with square grinders review these videos . . .
Here is the website address. The man in the videos (Kelly Peile) is very good at explaining his product.
http://simingtonchaingrinder.com/
http://vimeo.com/56485567
http://vimeo.com/56478968 set-up-adjust-and-use/
http://vimeo.com/56484486 Fine tuning
http://vimeo.com/57077565 Available wheels and comments
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660mag that chain you did on your grinder looks sweet. Hope to put in in some wood someday soon.
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LMK how it does after you get it limbered up. We might could change something about it if we have to?
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If we get some warm sunlight I'll make up a 60DL one? Might be a couple weeks?
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Sure ;D
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Economics 101
The new Simington 451C Grinder right now is $800 with free shipping all adjusted and ready to plug in and grind from the factory.
Also right now there is an old style Silvey Swing Arm from 1977 that has a few minor locally available parts missing and no stand for $600 + $30 shipping on Ebay. You will most likely need to put a wheel on it too for probably another $25 when you consider shipping? Don't forget you need a stand might be $140 with sipping if you buy one? It probably needs some tune up adjustment and shimming to get it to grind properly?
Now which one would you buy?
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If I ever sell my rz II I'm going to get a new simington with the raker attachment.
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I just wanted to look at this one and save info here. http://simingtonchaingrinder.com/2013/s-451-c-high-production-grinder/
Video http://simingtonchaingrinder.com/chain-grinder-features/
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Says video on the different wheels. http://simingtonchaingrinder.com/grinding-wheels/
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Very good read Jim, and no doubt your research shows in your chain. Very very nice looking chain I saw the other day. Even a guy that isnt into square can see the nice crisp angles, and perfect placement in the corner of the tooth. Well done indeed!
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660mag do you or anyone you know have one of the new Simington grinders and what they think of it.
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All I have is a 1979 early style Silvey Swing Arm.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/PC200004_zpsa3386510.jpg)
I bought it used from a member last fall and cleaned it up/replaced most of the fasteners with Allen bolts and put new bearings in the arm pivot for one was busted. I attempted to tune the grinder up (side to side) by tilting the arm as they are designed that way but had more success at putting a 5/8" Oilite bushing in the pivot bolt cavity of the base to zero the arm and then I shimmed the motor to the arm. At fist, I loosened the motor and put two 1/4" flat washers under two bolts on one side of the grinder but that was too much. So then I tried a business card but it was not enough, so I used two thickness’s of the business card and that was mighty close side to side. As far as I'm concerned, it is as good as a new one to me. I can raise and lower the grinding wheel arbor on the motor to effectively change the arm height if I so desire. I can move the chain holder back and forth a considerable amount (it is slotted) to allow for different inner angles. The dressers were set at 80 and 20 degrees when I got it and with the chain holder in the middle, it puts some good angles on LGX chain.
Watching Kelly Peil's videos, the Simington 451C seems mighty good to me and he has a good price compared with a Silvey. One thing about a new one is that no kid has played with it and run the cutter stops into the wheel and ground them half away or compromised the main frame structurally with some hair brain idea as I have seen done on some of the used Silvey and Simingtons for sale?
In spite of what some of the guys on the Internet say, the old style Silvey was first and in a business slow down, Simington bought the Swing Arm and Razur sharp I designs, patents and all, from Silvey. So the Simington 450 is almost identical in every way to the Silvey. Simington eventually sold the Swing arm and I think Peil is at least the 3rd owner of the Simington line. One of the owners decided to update the design and came out with the 451. The 451 has a TEFC motor. The old original Dayton motor on the early Silvey and Simington 450 is no longer available as it was a 56 frame, 1/4 HP Split Phase, 1/2" shaft, cradle mount, ball bearing, 1750 rpm motor, that was mounted to the grinder with the end bell bolts. The newer Silvey's have a C face - drip proof motor. I think the new motors are a 48 frame?
Overall, I think the Simington 451C is a better deal than the new style Silvey for it has a better motor and is more easily adjusted. Besides, it is cheaper out the door.
Picture of a Simington 451A which differs mainly from the "C" model by the single chain stop of the "C"
(http://chainsawrepair.createaforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1333.0;attach=2450;image)
Picture of the depth gauge grinding attachment for the Simington 451A
(http://chainsawrepair.createaforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1333.0;attach=2452;image)
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Wow 660mag that was good. You presented some good points and the reason I ask is I am considering on purchasing one the new ones from Simington. I have tried calling them several times but have not been able to get a hold of anybody as of yet. Thanks Roger
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Simington would be my choice right now . . .
Maybe as a stop gap - did you try Emailing him?
http://simingtonchaingrinder.com/contact-simington/
or order it on line?
http://simingtonchaingrinder.com/2013/s-451-c-high-production-grinder/
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They'll answer the phone sometimes. If you leave a message they'll call back.
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They'll answer the phone sometimes. If you leave a message they'll call back.
So far I have left an email called and left messages on office phone and cell phone and tried to order one online and all have failed. I will give them a few more days to see what happens. So far not very impressive.
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There's always Madsen's and the Silvey for $135 more?
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This is Kelly Peil's other website and main business but the telephone is the same. It is the cattle chute business.
http://www.saltcreekindustries.com/contact-salt-creek/
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I will be patient and give it alittle more time. Question is the silvey worth a 135 more and with a company no longer in buisness.
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Actually, unless some unauthorised person destroys the stops or throws it over, it is unlikely you will ever need any part for a swing arm other than grinding wheels. I think the main wheel manufacturer is Pacific Grinding Wheel? The Italian Molemabs are not normally the ones you want. I replaced most of the fasteners and all the washers and springs on my 34 yr old grinder with parts from the hardware store. I wanted new bearings for my swing arm and had a choice of three different stores in town to get them. SRCarr put new bearings in the motor of his RZII but he got them locally. The fiber washers for under the diamond dresser arms on my grinder were marginal but I got new ones at the hardware store.
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I came across some pictures of a old Simington 450 last fall that was for sale. Appears to have sat in a barn for a few years as shown by the bird nest material around the motor? Likely so of that bird residue is inside the open motor also so it should be blown out? This grinder probably dates from the early 80's? Take note that the Simington 450 is almost identical in every way to the early Silvey Swing Arm grinder with even the same motor.
Also upon examination of the pictures, someone has played with the left hand chain stop and ground it down thin on the top and bottom. The chain or cutter stops on the early Silvey and Simington 450 Swing Arm grinders are just made from 1/4" key stock anyway. They can can be made with a drill and bit, hacksaw, and file. You can get the key stock at the hardware store.
This grinder's arm has been shimmed with an extra washer to lower the arm for possibly grinding "404" chain? The washer part of the thrust washers used on this grinder's arm are normally .063" thick. But you can get them in .032" and .016" just as readily to use to shim the arm higher or lower by substituting a thinner washer or adding a washer thickness of your choice. Also the grinding wheel can be raised or lowered on the motor to do the same thing.
In the bottom picture you can see the back side of the arm where there are two holes for the chain holder. The rear hole is for the work chain style interior grinding angles. My Silvey grinder has a slotted hole in the chain holder from the center forward. In theory, I could also turn the chain holder around and have adjustment in the other direction from center to change the interior angles.
In the middle picture, if you look closely, the main frame has been tapered above the vertical diamond dresser to allow more variation in adjustment to give more positive lead on the vertical exterior angle of the chain. On some of these style grinders, the diamond dresser is mounted farther out on the other side of the tilting block and it is not necessary to relieve the main frame. With the dresser arm on the outside of the angle block, the dresser has to extend out farther which increases the potential of chatter in the dresser. On my old Silvey, the angle block is mounted farther out and the dressing arm is on the inside of the angle block to try to achieve the best of both worlds.
So you can see that there are a lot of adjustment possibilities if that is your bag. Most likely your grinder experience will be a set and forget it one?
There is a picture of the motor name plate as well as the right and left sides of the grinder.
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In my mind there are two kinds of square grinders, those that swipe the chain tooth across the grinding wheel and then there are a couple square grinders that bring the chain tooth into the grinding wheel at a common angle to the corner of the chain.
The swiping designs include the Silvey and Simington Swing Arms as well as the Silvey Razur Sharps and the old Simington S-495 which is identical to the Silvey Razur Sharp I design. The design problem with these is that the corner of the horizontal portion of the grinding wheel does all the work. To do a nice chain grind, even on a 60DL chain, after you go around the cutters, you need to dress the grinding wheel to clean up the corner and make another light pass over the cutters before you proclaim the chain sharp.
With the Silvey Prosharp and SDM4 grinders the chain cutter is presented to the working part of the grinding wheel all at once. Therefore with these grinders the grinding wheel stays sharp longer. But the grinders have a high parts count and resulting wear points with few of them available at the hardware store. These grinders cost 60% to 100% more than the swing arms new.
So it is a trade off.
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I understand what you are saying about the two.
For me dressing the grinding wheel a second time to get it nice and crisp for a second pass is not a big enough deal to warrant that kind of increase in cost. When you can still get the same results in the end on either grinder I would deal with that short coming of a swing arm.
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+1 That was my point
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I got an email back from Simington this evening. It seems that they have been out of town on a ag expo. Said he would get a hold of me next week on the grinder. I guess that is what you call a small buisness. Well anyways I am glad he got in touch and maybe I will get a grinder ordered next week.
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Lay'd back eh? It is more or less a ranch with a welding/fabrication shop.
It's very rural and beautiful if you like the remote high altitude (5,000') life.
From Salt Creek Industries, it's some 15 mi East to Lakeview (pop 2,300) which has what you usually need and a all day trip West to Klamath Falls (pop 21,000) for the big city life and a Walmart.
Medford and Bend are over that way a little farther to the West.
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Those guys are busy with the other business and the grinders do seem to take a back seat sometimes. If you use the ceramic you can do a whole 60dl chain without a second pass and it will still be crisp. It's the only wheel that will let you do that. The waxed gray works for removing a lot of material at a time but has to be dressed twice a side for a 60 dl.
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Those guys are busy with the other business and the grinders do seem to take a back seat sometimes. If you use the ceramic you can do a whole 60dl chain without a second pass and it will still be crisp. It's the only wheel that will let you do that. The waxed gray works for removing a lot of material at a time but has to be dressed twice a side for a 60 dl.
I use a salmon wheel and I find that they load up. I can do an entire side of a 32" full comp chain without dressing the stone and the cutters will look great. Then switch to the other side, reverse the direction of the motor and it will burn the cutter. So I always dress between sides. If I'm doing smaller chains like 20" I'll do 2 at a time.
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SILVEY SDM-4 SQUARE GRINDER
I came across these pictures of a Silvey SDM-4 grinder. It is a variation of the Silvey Prosharp even though it has two chain vises like a RZ II. Relationship is more towards the Prosharp because of the way it presents the chain cutter to the grinding wheel so that the whole working surface of the grinding wheel does an equal amount of grinding. The way the vise holds the chain is more like the Prosharp and not at all like either of the Razur Sharp designs.
http://silveychaingrinder.com/chisel-square-grinders/sdm-4-grinder
http://www.madsens1.com/sil_sdm4.htm
http://www.madsens1.com/GRAPHICS/Silvey/sdm4.wmv
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I really regret not getting a SDM 4 a few years ago when madsens was having a big sale on them at $1k.:(
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There's a new one on Ebay (the one in the pictures) but he wants $1600 for it.
It has two chain vises like your RZ II but other than the motor and grinding wheel being the same, that is about the end of the similarity.
I don't think they have made the Prosharp in a few years??? so the SDM-4 is the Cadillac for now.
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Alright 660Magnum. I got my grinder in today and got it all set up. I checked the level of the grinder from side to side and all is good. I put a chain on and got right in the corner no problem. Now for a few questions.
1. I know I cannot keep it completely out of the tie strap but how much is acceptable and what can I do to minimize that.
2. What angles do you like to put on the grinding wheel and what kind of measuring device do you use.
Oh and one more thing, I really like it and it is pretty easy to use. Thanks for the recomendation.
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You have to lower the arm to get out of the tie strap. It doesn't take much. But in your learning of the inter-relationships, you will notice, to lower the arm
requires you to back up the stop and raise the cutter tooth on the holder. This will change your inner top angle a degree or so. But it will get the wheel
out of the tie strap too.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/100_2751.jpg)
The 451 presents a problem for the beginner with all its adjustments. You have probably lowered or raised the arm with the little black knob under the arm to
get the corner of the wheel in the corner of the cutter? But this has gotten you into the tie strap? The 450 could not raise and lower the arm and you had to
use the cutter stop to make the corners align. You normally didn't get into the tie strap unless you were grinding .404. So be aware of your interrelationships.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/slider-grinding-3.jpg)
I consider any streak on the tie strap to weaken it? This makes a minor difference on a 346 but if you are using the chain on a 084, it could make the chain break.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/C19.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/mychainbuildoff001-1.jpg)
As far as standard acceptable angles go, I use the little angle chart offered by Madsens. I checked some Oregon CL against the chart and it was pretty much right on.
For a angle finder, I had a couple Brown & Sharp and Starret angle finders of different types but decided I liked a little $4 yellow plastic one from Lowes or Home Depot better. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jamesirl/toolsplus_2240_35285721.jpg)
A Thought Exercise About Interrelationships
The outside vertical side plate angle is often ignored or miss understood. You want about 2 degrees positive inclination. That means that the part of the
outside vertical angle closest to the top plate is to be 2 degrees ahead of the part of the angle nearest the gullet. The angle reference is with the line of travel
and not with reference to the top plane of the top plate which is sloped to allow clearance for the aft part of the cutter. This angle should be either 88 or 92
degrees depending on how you read the protractor from the bar rail. The reason for this 2 degrees is that the front of the cutter raises up ever so slightly
when in the wood. The 2 degrees is an attempt to keep the cutter outside angle zero-zero with the wood while in the cut. If you get too much lead, beyond 5
degrees, on the vertical angle, you will feel it in the chainsaw. This angle is changed by the vertical angle on the edge of the wheel. Be careful here as the
adjustment on the dresser is reversed compared with the result on the cutter tooth.
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I was practicing on a 3/8ths oregon chain and could not keep it out of the tie straps. But I felt pretty comfortable with the angles so I took a 3/8ths stihl chain off of one of my saws and starting sharpening it and had no problems at all with it coming into contact with the tie straps. So the cutter on the stihl chain must be taller than on this particular oregon chain. Tomorrow I will cut some practice pieces with the chain to see how it performs.
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My experience has been with 3/8" Oregon LGX and Stihl RS. These were originally round ground chisel chains. I didn't see much set-up difference?
Oregon made some 76LG 3/8" chain with a lighter frame and the cutter was a little lower at one time? Maybe you got into some of that?
There was some corresponding Stihl chain at one time also.
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For the record, here are links to the Madsen's tutorials
Square grinding Q&A
http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_chisel_qna.htm
Angles
http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_cb_angles.htm
Square filing
http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_filing_cb.htm
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I will try and get my wife to take a picture of the chain I sharpened last night. It was 3/8ths stihl round ground and I square ground it. Her camera will do good close ups mine will not and I already tried but the pics looks like crap.
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I don't worry about getting into the tie straps unless it's over 1/3 of the way to the rivet. I've never broken one on ported 90 cc saws and a stock 3120.
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Thanks for the reply. I had seen alot of the pictures you have taken and was wondering about it. Like anything else I am sure there are the pros and cons.
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For faster square. I was always told you have to get into the tie strap to get the angle you want. Hand filing and I seen this with my faster machine square chains too.
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This is my first square grind. The picture is just so so. Give some critics of what you see wrong.
(http://chainsawrepair.createaforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1333.0;attach=2651;image)
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That is a pretty good looking chain to me. The Mrs. did a good job taking the picture.
Looks as though you had the chain mount forward? The inner angles are sharp. Looks like you did the gullets too.
How does it do in the wood?
Seemed to me that with the sharper angles, the chain cuts good but absorbs more power too. I had a 20" CL chain on a 76cc 372 and you had to push
on the chain to keep the rpm down.
I took a 60DL LGX and ATOP'd it. The rakers turned out to be about 030. It cut good but you had to let the chain feed itself. The Atop makes inner angles about like yours.
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The chain cut very well but I think I had the rakers just alittle low for the hard wood I was testing it on.
This same chain on some pine would work very well.
The sharp angles are one of the things that always impressed me about square grind so yes I had it completely
forward. I like it when the chain just kind of self feeds into the wood. This one will do that.
I would like to get another wheel and dress it alittle different and see how it works.
By the way how does that salmon wheel come off. I see the big nut on the bottom but what do you use to hold
the armature of the motor from turning to get the nut broke loose.
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I watched Kelly and he held the edge of the wheel with one hand and used a wrench on the big nut. I'd keep a little WD40 on the threads?
My grinder wheel had probably been mounted for 25 years. I used a thin wrench from my angle grinder and it caught the flat on the motor shaft. Then I had a huge pair of
smooth jaw Channel Locks to get the nut off.
First run of the grinder should be from the side where the stand is on your left?
My grinder has a split phase motor so it starts slowly and there's no problem with the nut coming off unless it is just loose.
But your motor looks to be capacitor start? It may start with more torque?
People talk like the Molmab Italian salmon wheels from Bailey's are not as desirable as the Pacifics. Bailey's, Madsen's, and Salt Creek all sell the Pacifics.
Pacific Grinding Wheel from Bailey's http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=45822&catID=
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Thanks 660Magnum. You are correct this is a capacitor start motor. There is a flat spot up where the fan is mounted maybe
I can get something on it there to hold it while I break the nut loose.
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You might could just TAP on your wrench handle to make the nut come loose?
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I can take mine off by holding onto the stone. They don't need to be that tight since they have the large washer won't slip.
When I took my motor apart to put new bearings in it I did see that someone had been sticking a screw driver in from the top to hold the armature while loosening the stone and a few of the lead fins where bent.
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So I held the stone by hand and took the nut off with a large crescent wrench. Like you guys said it was not tight at all.
Ok so now I am going to see about getting another grinding wheel.
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You might want to take a fine point Sharpie and make a mark on the main frame across the top of your dresser pivot blocks now? So after you change the stone angles on your new wheel, you can always come back to the original factory settings?
The flatter you get the top angle on the wheel - the less of an outside angle on the chain top plate. This adjustment is not very sensitive. Results only go so far as to working chain outer top angles.
In fact, I would take my angle finder and document the existing wheel angles and the resulting outer angles on your chain.
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Just wanted to post a pic of the grinder and some of the results with the last chain I did.
I did a oregon .375 chain and put it on a Poulan 365 and took a pic of the chips. There is no sawdust in there.
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Take a round filed chain and compare it to your square to how much quicker your cuts are now.
Nice looking chip pile. 8)
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Looks nice
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Looks like you did good on the grinding.
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Simington 450 $200 + shipping
http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/tls/3672977757.html
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Looks like a deal. I am glad that the one I have has the adjustable swing arm. I suppose you could retrofit an earlier one.
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So I got a grey waxed wheel from madsons and have it set up for doing .325 chain.
I have to say even though it requires more dressing than the salmon it does not have a
tendency to over heat the chain. It is more messy but so far I am liking the grey waxed
wheel and will continue to use it on my .325 and use the salmon on .375. I think I am going
to get one more wheel and see how it does. A blue ceramic.
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Blue = $$$
Anxious to hear how you like it.
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Blue = $$$
Anxious to hear how you like it.
This is true they are not cheap but what I have read about them is all good so far. I will be sure to let you know.
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The blue is the best wheel out for them. The gray waxed are ok but do make a mess. I use the gray to convert round to square. The blue is what I've been using lately for all the work chains.
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The blue is the best wheel out for them. The gray waxed are ok but do make a mess. I use the gray to convert round to square. The blue is what I've been using lately for all the work chains.
From what I have read the blue ceramic leaves a nice smooth grind.
I can see why you would use the grey waxed to convert round ground chisel to square. I have done a few with the salmon wheel and you have to go real slow or burn the cutter. The grey is much more forgiving.
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The blue leaves a nice finish and will last a lot longer than the salmon or white. The gray is ok for work chain but I usually just use it to get close and finish the chains with a blue wheel.
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Well during my trip here in Wyoming I had a chance to cut up some cotton wood that was 33" inches across. So I used my Poulan 3700 60cc, my Poulan 395 64cc, and my Jonsered 670 67cc. All three saws had 20 inch bars and 3/8ths chain. The 3700 had a chain that I square ground, the 395 had a chain that I hand filed square, and the 670 had a new Oregon chisel chain. Well to my surprise the 3700 was cutting faster than the other two. I really thought that I had done a better job on the hand filed chain but I do not think it was any better than the Oregon round ground chisel on the jonsered. I was having some tuning problems with the Jonsered and I think it will do better once I get that fixed, but still I was surprised. The only draw back with the square ground chisel was I barely hit the ground one time and it went from making chips to sawdust in nothing flat. When I get back home I will be converting more of my chains to the square ground. No doubt I am hooked now.
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Good report. Glad you like the square ground chain and that it has worked out for you. Apparently the angles were all optimum on the ground chain for what you were doing.
I made a couple round chains square the other day on my Silvey.
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Good report. Glad you like the square ground chain and that it has worked out for you. Apparently the angles were all optimum on the ground chain for what you were doing.
I made a couple round chains square the other day on my Silvey.
Yes I read your report on cutter length and gave some karma for that one. That was some good information.
I also have a blue wheel now and will be using it more when I start converting more of these round ground chains.
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Did a 3/8" Round ground Chisel Husky chain into square for a friend a couple weeks ago...
He sent me a cell phone picture of some Aspen chips that are typical of being cut with a square chain. I think he was using his 550?
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Square ground chain really does cut but when it goes bad it stops cutting right away. I am making sure I have plenty of spares. Good chips on the picture.
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Newer Silvey swing arm
http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/grd/4126990158.html
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Silvey RZ II grinder on the Bay. Careful, the boots are torn.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Silvey-R-2-Chain-Grinder-for-chainsaw-chains-used-/261304375684?pt=US_Chainsaws&hash=item3cd6f45984
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Silvey Pro Sharp on ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AWESOME-Silvey-Pro-523-chainsaw-grinder-chain-sharpener-w-stand-full-guide-/321233891046?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4acb082ee6
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Newer Swing arm Craig's List
http://eugene.craigslist.org/tls/4153335585.html
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It looks like the Craigslist/ eBay supply of these dried up to a few very pricey chances every now and then. I looked for a deal for over two months before biting the bullet and buying a new Simington from Madsen's yesterday.
That said, it looks from this thread, and others around the net, that the blue wheel is a preferred option. I'm not seeing any available, however. Madsen's and Baileys don't have any and Simington's website indicates that he doesn't carry them any longer. Does anyone know of a supplier who has them for sale? Thanks.
While I'm here, has anyone rigged a water spray to their unit like that German sharpener? It makes sense from a theoretical standpoint. Not sure how practical it is.
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Madsens is who I got mine from. If they don't have them call woods logging supply and see if they have any.
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The wheel that Madsen's normally caries and the one Silvey used to sell (Not blue) were from Pacific wheel.
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The blue wheel I have came from Madsons. I am really not any more impressed with it than any of the other wheels.
I actually use the gray waxed wheel more than anything else because it does not burn the cutter as easily, but you do have to shape it more frequently. I also like the finish from the gray wax wheel better than the blue wheel.
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I have no problem with the orange wheel from Silvey, but when it's worn out that'll be the end of that ERA. I have a new Molemab but after that I'll probably use what ever Madsen's has in the way of a orange wheel?
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I liked the blue since I could do a couple chains on one dress then swap sides, dress it and get those chains done with no extra dressing. Gray waxed is best for converting round or fixing rocked chains.
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When I was ordering a assortment of grinding wheels there was a stick of wax listed. Do you just coat the grinding wheel with wax for a better grind?
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I enjoyed talking with you the other week at the GTG and eating your pies that you brought. They were first class.
I never used a waxed wheel. But I think it keeps the wheel from loading up with dirt?
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Waxed wheels won't burn cutters. You can take off a lot of damaged cutter in one pass with it. I used them for converting round to square a lot. It requires lots of dressing as it's a soft wheel. Good for learning since you won't burn a cutter.
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I enjoyed talking with you the other week at the GTG and eating your pies that you brought. They were first class.
I never used a waxed wheel. But I think it keeps the wheel from loading up with dirt?
That what a GTG is for learning, food, saws and such.
I bought a Simington grinder and have already learned not to shape wheel in front of my workbench, cause it's now covered with grit.
Had one small problem with the grinder. The knob for the swing arm stop would not fit because the thread was missing. A thread tap took care of the problem.
.
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Glad you fixed the problem. I think that is the beauty of swing arm grinders is that they are simple.
Enjoy
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I bought a Simington grinder and have already learned not to shape wheel in front of my workbench, cause it's now covered with grit.
Had one small problem with the grinder. The knob for the swing arm stop would not fit because the thread was missing. A thread tap took care of the problem.
I had the same issue. Both of the stop thread holes were pretty poorly cut. Cleaned right up. The chain guide needed to be replaced also. The .063 guide worked just fine on .050 but the .050 wouldn't take a chain. The Simington folks were great. Shipped a new one out very quickly. Very happy with the unit. Chains just roll through wood.
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If/when I get another it will be a swing arm. Much quicker grinding also.
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The only thing that I dislike about Simington swing arm grinders is that the chain holder is made from high density plastic. Time, heat & oil will eventually cause the chain holder to distort to the point that it will no longer accept the stated chain gauge.
However, the Silvey chain holder is made of aluminum and appear to be the same dimensions. I put one on one of my Simington grinders and it works great. I bought the Silvey chain holder from Madsens.
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I do not use the swing arm stops on my Simington grinder. I put my magnifiers on and look at how far I grind to the corner. I should use the stops for more consistent tooth length but I got use to not doing it. The chains always cut good but maybe next time I will use the stops and see how the tooth length really is.
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(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r135/devonhubb/Simington%20Grinder/scan0009.jpg) (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/devonhubb/media/Simington%20Grinder/scan0009.jpg.html)
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r135/devonhubb/Simington%20Grinder/scan0001-1.jpg) (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/devonhubb/media/Simington%20Grinder/scan0001-1.jpg.html)
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r135/devonhubb/Simington%20Grinder/scan0010.jpg) (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/devonhubb/media/Simington%20Grinder/scan0010.jpg.html)
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(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r135/devonhubb/Simington%20Grinder/scan0002.jpg) (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/devonhubb/media/Simington%20Grinder/scan0002.jpg.html)
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r135/devonhubb/Simington%20Grinder/scan0001.jpg) (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/devonhubb/media/Simington%20Grinder/scan0001.jpg.html)
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r135/devonhubb/Simington%20Grinder/scan.jpg) (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/devonhubb/media/Simington%20Grinder/scan.jpg.html)
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I added some wing nuts to the adjustment screws.
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac273/jwalken/saws%2009/DSC_0022-4.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/jwalken/media/saws%2009/DSC_0022-4.jpg.html)
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For locking it in, good idea.
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The arm travel stops are very important to me and I use them religiously.
However, some people ignore them and just keep the arm travel stops out of the way.
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The arm travel stops are very important to me and I use them religiously.
However, some people ignore them and just keep the arm travel stops out of the way.
That would be me.
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I have a early Silvey which is almost exactly identical to the original Simington 450. I use wing nuts like in the picture of the Simington 451C above but I put a bevel washer between the nut and the machine so I can set the wing nuts to offer some resistance to turning the stops but not lock them up.
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I hope to get me another swing arm in the future. The other designs are nice but require more maintenance.
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There's no grinder more simple than a swing arm.
Of the original Silvey or original Simington 450 you can even make new chain stops at home for they are made of 1/4" key stock.
Even the late model Silvey and Simington 451C are rather simple with most parts available at the hardware store except for the main castings and the motor.
The motor on the swing arms are so lightly loaded that they should last a life time with an occasional bearing change.
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For all of you Silvey RSII grinder owners I am producing a kit for the bearing slide. I currently have 5 kits available.
(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m599/srcarr52/SilveyRSII_Slide_Rebuild_9-13-12/IMG_2343_zpsff55149b.jpg) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/srcarr52/media/SilveyRSII_Slide_Rebuild_9-13-12/IMG_2343_zpsff55149b.jpg.html)
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The only thing that I dislike about Simington swing arm grinders is that the chain holder is made from high density plastic. Time, heat & oil will eventually cause the chain holder to distort to the point that it will no longer accept the stated chain gauge.
However, the Silvey chain holder is made of aluminum and appear to be the same dimensions. I put one on one of my Simington grinders and it works great. I bought the Silvey chain holder from Madsens.
Thanks for the info Devon!
Just ordered a aluminum Silvey chain holder today.
I would think that those Silvey parts will sell out soon too. So get while the getting is good!
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The only thing that I dislike about Simington swing arm grinders is that the chain holder is made from high density plastic. Time, heat & oil will eventually cause the chain holder to distort to the point that it will no longer accept the stated chain gauge.
However, the Silvey chain holder is made of aluminum and appear to be the same dimensions. I put one on one of my Simington grinders and it works great. I bought the Silvey chain holder from Madsens.
Thanks for the info Devon!
Just ordered a aluminum Silvey chain holder today.
I would think that those Silvey parts will sell out soon too. So get while the getting is good!
I can make the chain holders. So far I've been making them from steel so they should last longer. Here is one on a RSII I just rebuilt for a friend.
(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m599/srcarr52/IMG_3353_zps18753b78.jpg) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/srcarr52/media/IMG_3353_zps18753b78.jpg.html)
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Simington square grinder
Roger is this the thread you put your Simington you bought new in?
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Simington square grinder
Roger is this the thread you put your Simington you bought new in?
Yes it is Kevin. I think it starts around page 4.
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Thanks I was looking for someone else. I stopped at page 2 and had to run so ask. Thanks.
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Good info ty
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Found this looking for files.
Tuning a Simington Square-Chisel Chain Grinder
http://www.madsens1.com/sim_tuning.htm
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Saw Chain Grinders
http://www.madsens1.com/mnu_grindjack.htm
Silvey Pro Sharp
Silvey's Best Chisel Grinder
Silvey SDM-4
The Chisel Grinder Silvey Is Famous For
Silvey RII
Silvey's Entry Level Chisel Grinder
Silvey Swing Arm
Silvey's Low Cost Chisel Grinder
Simington #451C
A Chisel Grinder for All Users
Tuning a Simington Grinder
Photos/Instructions on Its Use
Silvey HDG-6
Silvey's Depth Gauge & Gullet grinder
How to Use the HDG-6
Photos/Instructions on Its Use
Silvey P & D
3/4" Pitch Pond & Deck Round Grinder
Also a Good Harvester Chain Grinder
Silvey 510 Round
Silvey's Round Chain Grinder for
Chain Saws and .404 Pitch Harvesters
Tecomec Round Chain Grinder
A Good Entry Level Round Grinder
Silvey Bar Rail Tools
Silvey's Bar Rail Grinder & Closer
Silvey Tree Jacks
Hydraulic Directional Tree Falling Aid
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The company web site is still up?
http://www.silveychaingrinder.com/
Edit:04-2-16 The site comes up with a notice that it is CLOSED!
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Found this looking for files.
Tuning a Simington Square-Chisel Chain Grinder
http://www.madsens1.com/sim_tuning.htm
Roger you do anything special to your Simington Square grinder? The 325 square chain cutters you just did is all off the grinder?
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I've done both 3/8" LP (Stihl PS - PICO) & .325 on my Silvey swing arm with no modification.
What limits me is the distance between the raker and the cutting edge and this has some effect on the angle underneath the top plate of the cutter.
I have not redressed or changed the angles on the wheel.
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Interesting and good to know. Thanks
Jim you have your 325 chain done for the chain build off rd3?
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I haven't started it but can if you need it now.
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Nope dont need. Just wondered how it was coming along.
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I had a guy ask me to square file a 60" chain today. Guess what I told him. :D
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Found this looking for files.
Tuning a Simington Square-Chisel Chain Grinder
http://www.madsens1.com/sim_tuning.htm
Roger you do anything special to your Simington Square grinder? The 325 square chain cutters you just did is all off the grinder?
If you are referring to the race chain I did then that was all done with the Simington grinder. Then the rest of the mods were done using a dremel.
No I did not modify the grinder in any way. But I did play around the with the angles that the wheel is dressed at until I got what I wanted. Don't ask what they are because I have no idea. I used a grey greased wheel first to get the general shape of the cutter and then I did a final grind with a blue wheel. The blue wheel seems to give a sharp angle in the corner of the tooth and I like the finish.
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Just saving some Simington swing arm square grinder pics I was sent.
Was wanting to see the adjustment 2 piece swing arm deal.
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Just saving some Simington swing arm square grinder pics I was sent.
Was wanting to see the adjustment 2 piece swing arm deal.
What's the story on the yellow spacers in the last 2 pictures?
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Just saving some Simington swing arm square grinder pics I was sent.
Was wanting to see the adjustment 2 piece swing arm deal.
What's the story on the yellow spacers in the last 2 pictures?
Not mine so dont know. Maybe Roger knows since he owns one.
WAG keeps the creep out of the nut snugged up to it?
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Just saving some Simington swing arm square grinder pics I was sent.
Was wanting to see the adjustment 2 piece swing arm deal.
What's the story on the yellow spacers in the last 2 pictures?
Some one added those to the stops. I do not have those on mine and I do not use the stops for the swing arm. I do that by eye with a pair of magnifiers on,
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Just saving some Simington swing arm square grinder pics I was sent.
Was wanting to see the adjustment 2 piece swing arm deal.
What's the story on the yellow spacers in the last 2 pictures?
Some one added those to the stops. I do not have those on mine and I do not use the stops for the swing arm. I do that by eye with a pair of magnifiers on,
I've noticed they do move some. Was curious what they were using.
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Looks like big tygon fuel line to me.
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Just saving info I am digging up.
Tuning simington http://www.madsens1.com/sim_tuning.htm
How to's http://simingtonchaingrinder.com/how-to-videos/
From madsens catalog
#M21 grey medium-soft vitrified 120 17.95
• This wheel dresses easily and removes material quickly. It doesn’t hold its shape as well as harder wheels, but It remains one of our best selling wheels.
#M21W grey waxed medium-soft vitrified 120 18.95
• This wheel is similar to the wheel above, but it is impregnated with wax for lubrication and cool grinding. Like the wheel above, it produces a good finish on cutter teeth, but it is not as popular.
#M47 salmon medium vitrified 100 17.95
• This wheel shapes and finishes cutter teeth well. It doesn’t remove material as fast as softer wheels above. It is also one of our best selling wheels.
#M50 white medium vitrified 100 17.95
• This wheel is similar to the wheel above. Some grinder operators say its white color makes it easier for them to see the corner in the wheel, which improves their ability to align corners.
#M49 brown medium resinoid 80 18.95
• This wheel removes material easily and quickly, however it doesn’t finish or shape as well as others. It is a good wheel if you have to grind a lot of chains each night or if you regularly sharpen rocked chains.
#M99 blue medium vitrified 100 39.95
• This is our only ceramic blend wheel. It keeps its shape and finishes cutter teeth very well. It is an excellent wheel and many grinder operators prefer it, but it is also the most expensive.
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http://simingtonchaingrinder.com/grinding-wheels/
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The yellow tubing on the adjustments is probably there as a friction stop . I used theaded well nuts on mine . It keeps the various adjustments from moving . There are just threaded rods for most of the adjustments on the 451c .
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Well here was the reason for my little saw sell off.
Silvey Razursharp early one that the first Simingtons came from when they bought the rights to it.
Then Silvey started on another one later on but different from my readings.
Just setting up and learning something new. Hopefully I can pick this up and offer square grinding local. Because I gave up the square file a few years ago. But got me thinking when a local ask me to square a 60" chain for him and I turned it down.
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Very good. With some practice you will get some pretty sharp chains and there is nothing like square grind.
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Just tested my first loop of RS round converted to square. Cut good and good chips.
I was going to compare it to a LGX loop I ran on the 65cc 415 in ash. Then went to put the converted RS loop on and came up short. Counted the drive links and had done a 70DL not 72DL like the LGX was on 415.
So put on a 60cc poulan for testing.
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Some good info here.
https://youtu.be/IqTfvxFDo5g
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The simington 450 looks like this silvey . Must be when they first sold it to simington then.
https://youtu.be/iTpNKyg2B-c
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https://www.tigersupplies.com/Products/Wixey-Digital-Angle-Gauge-with-Backlight-Type-2__WIXWR300.aspx?invsrc=adwords_ts&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-OD_z4rF2gIVzsDACh1tlA2CEAQYASABEgI6l_D_BwE
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I bought that above digital angle finder Roger for $28 shipped on ebay. I just want to see where the settings are at.
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450
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Madsens is where I bought some of my wheels. The blue wheel I know came from Madsens.
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Dennis Cahoon's Simington 450 swing arm square grinder. The picture is from the Internet.
What Dennis is pointing to in the first picture is where someone before him milled a slot in the arm so you can change the inside angles on the 450.
They also put a slot in the mounting plate in the second picture to raise and lower the chain relative to the grinding wheel.
Those pics were interesting. I totally forgot all this stuff from past years.
Thanks for documenting everything Jim.
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Saving pic scarr Shaun did.
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saving some pics of serriawoodsman's rsll maybe
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Some Simington Literature that I have acquired over the years. Hopefully this works....
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Pic 2
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Pic 3
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Pic 4
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Pic 5
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@Devon you can put 8 pics per post. Just so you know.
Just click add more attachments you want per post. If you want 8 put 8 boxes. (more attachments) right under where you click to upload
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Also thanks for posting those. Hope to get a chance to read them later.
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I own one of these units. The raker cutter (depth gauge) in the old advertisement is really interesting. I contacted the company to see if they have any old ones laying around they might be willing to sell.
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Ray,
I purchased one of the raker grinding attachments from Simington maybe 4 or 5 years ago (not really sure, time gets away from me). It works well. Just have to pull of the chain holder to mount it.
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Just curious what something like that cost?
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Make your own?
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I talked to them today. He was nice enough to csll me. Stopped selling them a number of years ago. You may have purchased one of the last ones.
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I found the old invoice. It was $58.
No wonder they quit selling them!
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I do my rakers on a regular chain grinder and shaped the wheel to the shape of the raker. It works fine.
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I do my rakers by hand which works out fine but relatives come around with chains that won't cut and that's a lot of filing to get those rakers down to where the chain will cut again.
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I have the raker wheel for the usg and never have used it to date. I just set takers by hand still.
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That old Silvey raker grinder looks so awesome! I would love to run into one of those. I file them by hand also. But, I'll confess, I hate it.
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Guy selling this nice early silvey grinder for $1200 in Oregon. Saving pics
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That seems to be rather expensive to me. Is that the going rate for an old silvey grinder?
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That seems to be rather expensive to me. Is that the going rate for an old silvey grinder?
Not really. Maybe if a collector wanted it. Think about how some folks pay big bucks for old saws now days.
Would be a nice one being the first off production in a chainsaw museum.
I just wanted to save pics as it was nice clean unmolested original.
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Just saving pics of this $300 Simington 451 square grinder south bend MI
CL ad = Good used Simington chain grinder for grinding square ground chains.
Serial # 172. I'm guessing an older model. Everything seems to work.
Forward and reverse on motor.
Different motor then I have seen in past, very small around. @660magnum you know anything on this one?
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Never seen one with a small motor like that. Good price.
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Just saving info. Shop close by. Silvey raker grinder and couple other silvey grinders.
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Madsen's silvey prices 2011
Silvey raker grinder a guy I know just picked up.
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Roger what did yours cost and what year you buy to compare. Guys on CRG he just got.
Simington 451 C Square Chisel Chain Grinder
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Simington 450 Square Grinder
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I bought mine back in Feb of 2013. Back then I think I paid around 900 and something dollars with a stand.
It still works great and I have done a lot of chains over the years with it. Even the race chains that I did were not too bad.
You have seen those chains in person.