Chainsaw Repair

Husqvarna - Stihl - Poulan - Jonsered - Dolmar chainsaws and more => Echo => Topic started by: huichex on December 06, 2013, 02:21:35 pm

Title: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on December 06, 2013, 02:21:35 pm
Hello all, I am new here, and to chainsaws. I was going to post in the current thread, but the site suggested that I start my own thread due to how long it had been since anyone had posted on it.

I am very interested in muffler modding my new CS-400. I was wondering if anyone had pix of the process, or a good description of what to do. I got as far as needing to split the muffler and remove everything. I was wondering if I needed to open up the inlet or the outlet as well. I figure that once I do this I will take it to a shop and let the tune the carb. so someone with a bit more clue that I can do it right.

Secondly is there anything that I could do to the intake that would help wake this saw up?

I would appreciate any help that I can get on doing this work, and look forward to the advice.



Thanks in advance.
Luis
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Moparmyway on December 06, 2013, 09:00:13 pm
I would tune it myself ..... its easy
Just do the muffler mod and then back out the high speed screw about 1/2 of a turn and start cutting some wood slightly larger than your bar. Make sure your chain is sharp. You should hear a crisp sounding 2 cycle while "in the cut" and keeping WOT while you lift out of the cut, it should warble and 4 stroke. Look for max chain speed while in the cut as you slowly turn the high speed screw. You may need to go slightly leaner than the 1/2 turn out - but it should be close. Double check yourself by lifting the saw out from the cut, with WOT so you hear that 4 cycle warbling.

You should notice more power right away. I tune my saws while in the cut for max power, or max chainspeed while cutting (same thing) and when out of the cut mine 4 strokes heavily. I turn the screw as she is cutting and try for a slight 4 stroke warble while she self feeds in the cut (no pressing down on the handle, just holding WOT and allowing the chain to pull itself down into uncut wood)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LImYkWMM21U

Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on December 06, 2013, 09:32:30 pm
Thanks for the quick response, and the good input. I want to apologize for the nub questions and please correct me if I'm wrong. I assume that backing the high screw out will richen the mixture.  (This seems like a dumb question I just want to be sure im clear as to what im doing) can you read spark plugs for mixture like you can on a 4 stroke?

Also what do I do to the muffler other than gut it out and use the same exit deflector? Or do I need to open the inlet and put a piece of pipe in there?
Thanks again
Luis
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: 660magnum on December 06, 2013, 09:43:00 pm
Gut the muffler and make the outlet larger is the intent of a muffler mod.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Moparmyway on December 06, 2013, 10:03:10 pm
Reading plugs is just a good start, if you know what you are doing. Plug deposition will change from WOT to idle. Whats to say that you arent looking at a plug that was blackened by a rich low speed setting, while running lean on the high end ?

Tune it in the wood and start with it rich. Ears are way better than eyes to tune with on 2 strokes IMHO. This way you know you must lean her out a little and you wont do any damage while running @ WOT.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on December 07, 2013, 06:16:57 am
Thanks again for the reply guys. I think sounds like me doing the tune is probably not out of the question, sounds like its straight forward. I will try and look at the saw in the next few days, and locate the high screw on the carb.

@660 I guess I wasn't clear enough on the question about the actual mod on the muffler. I am asking to make sure that I don't cut to much or not enough. I get that the point is to free up the exhaust to allow the motor to breath more and thus make more power, but surely there is a point where the there hole either on the inlet or the outlet of the muffler are too big, and then you are either losing power or the lack of backpressure makes the motor untuneable. That's why I was hoping to see some pix of what guys are doing to them that works.

Based on the pictures that I have seen of the outside of the mufflers, they are putting pipes as outlets and what not, didn't know how far into the muffler case those pipes went, or where to buy pipes that small and thin. I have access to a welder and  I plan to post pix of what I end up doing, just want to do it nice and right.

@Mopar Thanks for all the good info. The saw in the vid sounds killer, its vids like that that make me want to do this to my own saw.
Thanks again to everyone in advance.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: farmboy on December 07, 2013, 07:39:32 am
Rule of thumb is 85% of the ex port no spark screen or same size as ex port with spark screen.  The CS400 comes alive with a MM.  Neighbor was looking @ a Stihl MS290 I have for sale, as he said he needed a bigger saw.  I MM'd his CS400 and it cost me the sale.
Shep
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Moparmyway on December 07, 2013, 08:23:44 am
On that 330EVL, I made the hole as large as possible and still kept the plastic cover, without hogging that out.
On some of my other saws, the hole in the muffler is even larger than the hole at the cylinder. On the AS forum there are many threads showing gains due to increasing muffler outlet up to 175% (of exhaust opening @ cylinder exit). Dudes were noticing idling problems with a hole too large (IIRC, over 180%), but even @ 150% saws idled fine and produced more power than when the hole was 125%.

The larger the hole, the louder the saw. Hole placement also plays a role in saw loudness

On the pics of the 330 EVL, first one is stock, second is MM'd

On the 044, the first one is a stock opening, second one is a MM'd opening (2 different saws)
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: mountainlake on December 07, 2013, 09:08:20 am
Rule of thumb is 85% of the ex port no spark screen or same size as ex port with spark screen.  The CS400 comes alive with a MM.  Neighbor was looking @ a Stihl MS290 I have for sale, as he said he needed a bigger saw.  I MM'd his CS400 and it cost me the sale.
Shep

 A good muff modded CS400 is real close to a Stihl MS290 in cut times and 3 1/2# lighter ready to cut, no way would I run a MS290.  Steve
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on December 07, 2013, 09:53:47 am
Awesome! Now we are covering ground on the mm portion of this project. Should I do anything to the muffler inlet at the head?
Thanks again guys!
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Moparmyway on December 07, 2013, 11:46:13 am
No, IMHO, for now (untill you decide to port it) just MM the mufflers exit hole by enlarging it or making more holes for the exhaust to exit from
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: farmboy on December 08, 2013, 07:35:53 am
I'm with Steve!!  That's why I'm trying to get rid of the 290.  It's replacement will be a CS400 or a 500 or a 620 or a 680, or a 8000.  Echo saws are hard to beat in price or quality.  Much to my dismay I only have 2 Echo's CS600P's.  Would love some more Echo's.  It will happen.
Shep
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on December 08, 2013, 11:10:32 am
Alright boys, so this is what I have got so far. Please excuse the  rookie looking metal work. This thing was built a lot more sturdy than I had ever imagined... the final pic shows the front with no mounting holes, all I need to do now is locate those holes, and build a set of crush sleeves. Then a cool deflector and we are ready to play.

You can see where I tried to drill out the spot welds that I found, but the front of this thing wouldn't come apart so I lit up the old torch and it started listening.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Philbert on December 08, 2013, 12:36:56 pm
I am following this thread because I have a CS400.  Maybe, someday, interested in modifying it.

These photos look like a lot of work for a 'simple' muffler mod. Isn't there an easier way to go on this saw?

Thanks.

Philbert
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on December 08, 2013, 04:12:53 pm
It was more work than I had thought. But I threw every tool I could think of at it before I used the torch. Couldn't come up with a better way to get the front half of the catalitic off of the front half after splitting case.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Philbert on December 08, 2013, 06:44:54 pm
Now that you know what it looks like inside, could you have used a hole saw to drill out the cat, then made a cover without splitting the muffler case?

(I have never done a muffler mod, just basing this on threads I have seen).

Philbert
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on December 08, 2013, 07:05:05 pm
I dont think so. The cat is spot welded in 2 places at the back and it stretched from bolt hole to bolt hole at the front. I drilled out the spot welds I could see in the front but that didnt help. Maybe someone else can offer up their experience.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on December 10, 2013, 06:47:08 pm
I was hoping someone would comment on whether or not here was an easier way to do this, or on the size of the outlet. I have been at work, so I haven't been able to do anything else to it.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: 660magnum on December 10, 2013, 08:08:07 pm
The catalytic reactor adds complication to the situation that would not exist with the typical empty box muffler where it suffices to just add another outlet.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 02, 2014, 03:48:11 pm
OK, so it has been a while, but the muffler is done, and installed. I went to adjust the carb, but the H screw wont go left.... Is that expected? How do I remedie this? Also, does the L screw need any attention?
Thanks again.
Luis
I will post pix as soon as I can.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: 660magnum on January 02, 2014, 03:58:12 pm
There's a limiter on the "H" screw that must be disabled.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 02, 2014, 04:08:44 pm
Ok, cool, tell me more... how do I disable it?

By the way, it sounds pretty bad ass at idle....  ;D
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: 660magnum on January 02, 2014, 04:19:09 pm
Typically there is a little plastic tab the prevents movement beyond a certain amount.

There are many schemes on the needles to keep them from moving.

Look at it and see what's keeping it from moving.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 02, 2014, 04:29:55 pm
It looks like there is some plastic tabs, part of the adjustment screw. The thing is, they are beyond where I can reach them in an obvious way.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: 660magnum on January 02, 2014, 04:43:53 pm
I came across this problem the other day. I was able to slide the plastic screw cover with the tab completely off the screw.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 02, 2014, 04:50:37 pm
By "slide", do you mean pull the plastic part out? How do I get a grip on it?

Also, is here any benefit in drilling out the intake cover? I have seen pix of where someone made some neat holes on the back of the cover for fresh air.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: 660magnum on January 02, 2014, 04:59:20 pm
Correct.

I was able to get behind it and push it off
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 02, 2014, 05:12:12 pm
It looks like these orange plastic screws are in side part of the carb casting. They only turn a quarter turn to the right and stop, and they are currently as far open as they can go.(That's how I found them.)

Also, is here any benefit in drilling out the intake cover? I have seen pix of where someone made some neat holes on the back of the cover for fresh air.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Philbert on January 02, 2014, 05:32:58 pm
Quote
Also, is here any benefit in drilling out the intake cover? I have seen pix of where someone made some neat holes on the back of the cover for fresh air.
X2

Drilling holes in some covers can mess up the air filtration.

These are not high performance saws that need additional air to breathe. Keep your air filter clean.

Philbert
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 02, 2014, 05:39:20 pm
Cool, Thanks for that.

I think I am gonna take the saw to a small engine guy to do the carb. I cant see how to get these screws moving...
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: 660magnum on January 02, 2014, 05:44:26 pm
Good move
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 02, 2014, 05:54:17 pm
I was trying to load a vid, but its too big.... ;).

Story of my life...LOL.
Once its running right, I will post it on youtube and like it. It sounds like its deeper than it used to be. (At idle anyhow...) Not going to run it too much since I am sure its lean.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Majorpayne on January 03, 2014, 05:49:19 am
You can remove the plastic tab with a drywall screw. Screw it in the plastic and pull the tabs out with pliers.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 03, 2014, 01:04:54 pm
Ok, so out of the box the saw had both screws full left, at least as far as the limiter would allow. To9day I took it by a lawn equipment place and they said the carb didnt need any adjustments. ... this seems odd to me considering I hollowed out the muffler and removed a cat. Any input?
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Majorpayne on January 03, 2014, 01:14:21 pm
Did you remove the limiter tabs? I suspect they either don't know how or didn't want to mess with it.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 03, 2014, 01:21:22 pm
No the tabs are still there. I am worried that they didnt want to fool with it, and saw is still lean.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Majorpayne on January 03, 2014, 01:25:54 pm
You can get them out with a drywall screw. Then do this: http://www.madsens1.com/saw_carb_tune.htm
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 04, 2014, 07:46:31 pm
So, I got the caps off, and took it to this old guy, he tuned it by ear...
I will get a vid of it on youtube, and post the like.

That link for tuning is really good! Wish it had the Echo numbers...

What are those tachs called? I would love to have one.

Thanks again to everyone!
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Majorpayne on January 05, 2014, 12:50:35 am
I have a http://www.edgeandengine.com/store/dti-ft100.html
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: 660magnum on January 05, 2014, 09:11:54 am
Me too and that's where I got it
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Majorpayne on January 06, 2014, 05:23:04 pm
I tune by ear and then check it with the tach.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 06, 2014, 06:40:33 pm
Where can I find the max or desired rpm for the cs400?
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Majorpayne on January 06, 2014, 06:47:32 pm
Wide open throttle speed
(W.O.T.)
12,650 RPM
This is what it says in owners manual under technical data.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: sharkey on January 07, 2014, 01:52:03 am
Here are the updated specs for the Echo cs-400;
http://www.echo-usa.com/tomwin41/Techdata/cs-400.pdf

No wonder that is a little hot rod, check out the ignition advance, 34 degrees at 10k rpm...
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Philbert on January 07, 2014, 09:19:25 am
Thanks Sharkey. That is very helpful to have.

Is the full service manual available?

Thanks.

Philbert
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: farmboy on January 07, 2014, 09:36:11 pm
Question had allready been answered I didn't read far enough.
Shep
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 10, 2014, 07:16:36 pm
OK, so the tach is on the way!
"
These my be dumb Qs, but the max rpm is that unloaded, like not cutting... and is there a diff. between 18" and 16" bar? the book specifies 16" but mine is 18"
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Majorpayne on January 10, 2014, 07:27:51 pm
It is unloaded. The size bar doesn't matter.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 11, 2014, 10:58:50 am
Thank you!

So is there a benefit to getting an aftermarket bar?

 I got a new chain, Oregon, without the drag links. I am working on a little race with some coworkers, but weather has been real bad here lately, cold and wet. No one wants to be outside in weather like that, so I am getting the saw as ready as possible. Both of my buddys got factory Husqvarna saws.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 19, 2014, 01:15:42 pm
Ok, so I pulled the tach out of the package and when I placed it next to the plug wire...18888 was displayed while the saw was at idle. It is set for one spark per rev and I am going to source a new batt. Is there anything else I should check?
Thanks again
Luis
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Majorpayne on January 19, 2014, 01:19:59 pm
What happened when you rev the saw?
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: huichex on January 19, 2014, 07:48:00 pm
It displayed what looks like uuuuu. Zeros without the top. And then when I pulled it away it showed  mode 360.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Philbert on January 20, 2014, 02:04:53 pm
Quote
Here are the updated specs for the Echo cs-400;
http://www.echo-usa.com/tomwin41/Techdata/cs-400.pdf

Sharkey,

That link gives me pages 1-5 (page 6 is blank) of the service supplement, but the title page, references up to page 9.  Anyway to get the rest of this, or the complete service manual?

Thanks.

Philbert
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: brokenbudget on March 18, 2014, 06:11:17 pm
this is how I do a muffler up for these. this is for the black painted brazed together mufflers.
self explanatory. I use a thin cutter in a dremmel.
(http://i59.tinypic.com/25hpcvs.jpg)

depending if the assembler was sloppy with the braze, the front of the muffler might be stuck here. you'll need to work it loose carefully without bending it.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/28w1hyu.jpg)

this muffler is pretty bronze free. 2 ways to get rid of the cat. get rid of this tack weld and remove the whole can--if it isn't also sealed down with bronze. it should pry out pretty easy.
(http://i59.tinypic.com/zlssl.jpg)

or if it is stuck, I cut the top off the can and use a spade bit to remove the cat material. then clean up with a die grinder bit.
either way, I have found no difference in performance between these 2 ways.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/14dijnr.jpg)

then I open the whole hole ;D
(http://i61.tinypic.com/334j0k6.jpg)

I have found no reason to go bigger than the stock sized opening. the only thing I do is remove the louvers.
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2cr3nkm.jpg)

and only open the deflector up a bit. anything else is just getting loud.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/25iuaev.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/10s4p04.jpg)

i'll leave it up to the individual on how to reattach the 2 parts. weld, braze or silver solder works. not jb weld ;)
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: 660magnum on March 18, 2014, 06:50:08 pm
One of the biggest positives about getting rid of the catalytic part of the muffler is that most of the catalytic reactors and especially the honey comb ones are very heavy.

Also as the exhaust gases have to pass through the catalytic part and it has to get hot to react, it is rather restrictive. I don't like the heat from them either.
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: Philbert on March 18, 2014, 08:03:44 pm
Thanks for the clear photos.

Philbert
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: brokenbudget on March 19, 2014, 07:05:28 am
One of the biggest positives about getting rid of the catalytic part of the muffler is that most of the catalytic reactors and especially the honey comb ones are very heavy.

Also as the exhaust gases have to pass through the catalytic part and it has to get hot to react, it is rather restrictive. I don't like the heat from them either.

I get a lot of people that "don't want the extra power".  :) their response changes when I mention it gets rid of heat better. their response changes even further when they run their muffler modded saw 8) then they come back with more saws to mod ;D
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: leec on June 05, 2014, 08:30:03 pm
You will probably have to remove the plastic limiters.  Some folk use a drywall screw.  These limiters are demanded by the EPA and in the US it is an offence (I'm told) to remove them but many do.  You can put them back once you get a good tune however so it will look stock.

Lee  ;)
Title: Re: CS-400 Muffler Mod
Post by: stubnail67 on August 12, 2014, 11:41:26 pm
M-Payne.... you ever own a top handle pps23????