Chainsaw Repair
Husqvarna - Stihl - Poulan - Jonsered - Dolmar chainsaws and more => Husqvarna => Topic started by: JC360 on March 20, 2014, 09:16:07 pm
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Hey all,
I have been rebuilding a 288. I have been thru this thing top to bottom, almost.
It came to me a non runner with no comp. I am to the point of putting it all back together, and now have no spark. Brand new plug. How can I tell which is faulty, the coil or the module?
Thanks for lookin.
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IMHE, it is the module, mounted on the right rear of the saw.
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Hey thanks! Is this a problem spot on these saws?
Oh, and one more important piece of info. This saw came to me with no flywheel. I finally found one , it is off of a 181(same p/n i think?) I should not have to use a coil from a 181. Or do I?
Thanks
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Depending on which model of 181 (SE or SG) there were two flywheels used
501 80 22-01 (SE)
501 80 22-02 (SG)
(SG) being for a generator for heated handles. Both the 281 and 288 also used the same part numbers. There are two parts to the ignition system 501 81 27-02 & 501 81 28-01 being the electronic box and the coil respectively. Make sure you do not have the wires going to the wrong places, IIRC there is a red wire that goes from the electronics box to the coil and a blue or black that goes to the on/off switch. Also, check to see that none of the wiring is grounding out on the case. They have different size connectors so it is easy to get them where they belong. You can get factory replacements for both parts of the coil as well as aftermarket.
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Module to flywheel air gap should be 0.3mm or 0.012, use a business card to set the gap. Either half of the ignition system can fail, it is a 50/50 deal but in my experience it is more often the coil itself. Both parts are stupid expensive. I do not know of a good way to check the individual parts, and I don't have a complete one here.
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Great Post KRL +1
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I bought an aftermarket one from Northwoods and it seemed to work great. About half the price of OEM.
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Thanks KRL and Gatekeeper! I just wanted
The flywheel used is from a 181 se. It has the correct p/n stamped on it(22-01)
Air gap is. 014 . Yes you are absolutely correct, "stupid expensive"is the perfect description. Hence this post. I just wanted to pick someone's brain before I dropped that kind of $$. Much appreciated !!
Looks like another trip to NWS.
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IIRC, HVA used a couple different manufacturers for the two piece ignition systems, parts cannot be interchanged between the different types from different manufacturers. So you will probably have to buy the whole thing at $45!
Anybody know where Northwoods saw is located?
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Up state NY. I BELIEVE.
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Up state NY. I BELIEVE.
That is where I am at, Rochester, NY 14609, in the Great (Over Taxed) State of New York!
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I'll check the return address on the box my piston came in, when i get home and a let you know where exactly they are located.
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Northwoods is more "up the river" - back over towards the East - halfway between the Hudson and the state line.
If you are looking for "bricks and mortar", it will be hard to find. They are listed as Clinton Corners which is just a rural community but that's just the post office. Their place of business is actually North of there in more or less a farm setting. There is no public showroom.
They give well respected good service and response.
Phone (877) 845-7574
Email northwoodsaw@verizon.net
Website http://northwoodsaw.com
165 Willow Brook Rd just off the Taconic State Parkway
41.883396,-73.759644
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All 181, 281 & 288 ignition components are interchangable.....Black or blue module makes no difference.
First thing I would do is double check the red wire between the module and coil for continuity.....If the module can't "talk" to the coil, there's no spark.....There are tons of good used modules out there for cheap if you do need one.
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Well, I am finding out that its usually harder to find parts, than to install them. I do not have a good source/sources for used parts. Chainsawr was out of them, and the oem stuff is out of my price range. So i just ordered an AM set from NWS yesterday.
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Got my new coil today
and put it on and whadyya know. No spark. I gotta be missing something obvious. I have been thru the IPL about a dozen times. Anyone got any ideas? This thing has about got me cussin!
Thanks
Jeff
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OK, lets start at the beginning:
Is the switch turned on?
There are two wires that attach to the exciter (by the flywheel) a 'RED' and a 'BLUE or BLACK'.
The 'RED' wire goes to the coil (up by the carb), the red wire has different connectors on it so that you cannot get it the wrong way round. Inspect your wire for bare spots, if it is grounding out on the case you will not get spark
The 'BLUE or BLACK' wire goes from the exciter to the on/off switch, if it is bare anywhere along its' run and grounds out on the case you will not get spark.
The small black screw that holds in the switch is the ground point for the system.
So, if after checking all your wires for bare spots and correct connection and finding everything is good, if still no spark. Disconnect the blue/black wire from the switch, and check for spark, if you get spark then the switch is bad, they do fail you know.
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On second thought just disconnect the blue/black wire from the switch, make sure it does not touch the case and test for spark. If you get spark the switch is bad! If still no spark go through my previous post.
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NWS had two versions of the 288 setup last I looked exciter and coil, and just the exciter. Which did you buy? Also if you purchased both the exciter/pickup and the coil are you currently using both of the new components together or are you mixing them with the original components?
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Make sure that the red wire going from the exciter to the coil is not grounding out on the left screw on the exciter or on the front screw of the coil. Just a WAG but since we spoke, it dawned on me that since you could not find the correct size connectors, perhaps the larger ones you used are grounding out.
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How does the two "module" ignition work?? I've always thought it was a primary (larger) coil mounted @ flywheel and a secondary ( high voltage) mounted under the top cover???
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Exactly, the large piece creates initial voltage then sends to secondary which steps it up again to create spark.
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Thanks Tim. On the heated handle variants does the primary Coil provide current or is there a separate coil pack UNDER the flywheel? Trying to figure out the reason why husky used two coils!!! Adam
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You are correct a separate coil pack but also a different flywheel part number. I do not know if there is any real difference in the two flywheels except that the one used for the 'G' models may have different machining on the rear to make room for the generator. There are other 'G' model saws that do not use a two element coil like the 262XPG so do not think that the existence of the generator dictates a two element coil. IIRC sometime in the past I used the 'G' model flywheel on a non 'G' saw and everything was fine.
Would be interesting to know how much voltage the generator puts out. I dig around and see if I can find out. My guess would be between 6&14 volts.
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The generator puts out 65 watts at 10K RPM. Given that Volts times amps equal watts, my bet is that the generator puts out 12 volts and 5-6 amps, just a guess given the gauge of the wiring. Cannot currently find a spec on the voltage used. Troll likes this model of saw so perhaps he will come along and tell us.
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Jeff, any luck with the last test? Don't forget send an address by PM and I will send you the correct wire, no charge.
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I tried everything but the volt meter. Its AWOL. No dice on spark. This things starting to make me feel stupid.
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Don't feel bad, it happens! There is something that not only you are missing but the rest of us to! Did you try making sure there were on grounding situations with the red wire? It is possible that the new unit you got is defective. I looked around and I do not have a 288 coil setup on hand that I could send you just to try.
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This is REALLY a stupid question (so do not take offense) but earlier you said you were turning the saw over with a drill motor. Which direction do you have the drill motor set to turn clockwise or anticlockwise? IDK for sure but logic tells me the ignition system will not make current if turned in the wrong direction, otherwise you run the risk of the saw trying to run backwards. You should have your drill motor set to turn the flywheel anticlockwise.
If there are no ground shorts and you are turning in the correct direction and no spark I can only suggest that one piece of the new coil setup is defective!
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Bad flywheel? Just had that issue on a 3120
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Just spoke to Jeff, I thought the same thing Adam. Like if you drop a permanent magnet on a hard surface you upset the magnets internal structure. Asked Jeff about it and he said the flywheel was picking up tools off his bench and pulled the exciter to it with a lot of force when he was setting the air gap. So, it is still a possibility. He has replaced all the wiring and has no ground faults. He replaced the coil setup before he replaced the wiring. So, when he gets a chance will try putting the original coil setup back and see if there is spark.
So other than the flywheel, the only thing left ifs the after market coil if defective. I don't have an OEM complete coil setup or flywheel to loan him for a test!
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When I was working on my Dolmar 119 I had no spark and it was a trigger and a coil set up.
What I did was to connect a 12volt battery to the input of the coil very quickly and remove it. With a spark plug c-clamped to the top of the cylinder I could induce a spark. The removing of the 12v is what makes the spark. I used some jumper wires with alligator clips from radio shack. You have to make sure everything including the negative side of the battery is grounding through the cylinder.
I found my coil was good the trigger was bad.
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Roger, thank you, we need to save this some where!
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Roger, thank you, we need to save this some where!
One thing I might add is the contact of the 12volts has to be quick because a car battery has enouph amps to burn out the coil if you hold it on there. You could also try a small 9v battery.
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Jeff, I found and read through the thread on the other site. All good information but nothing you have not already tried. I will try to draw a schmetatic of how to connect the stuff up that 3000FPS suggests. Roger, check the drawing for accuracy that I will post shortly.
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OK, attached is what I think Roger was suggesting. Do not connect the battery to the input of the coil continously only momentarily.
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OK, attached is what I think Roger was suggesting. Do not connect the battery to the input of the coil continously only momentarily.
The only thing I might add is to make sure the body of the coil if not mounted in the saw is grounded also.
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So, if Roger's test produces a spark, then I assume the we can deduce that the exciter is faulty. Also you should test both the original blue SEM coil also, because I just found one in a used parts bin! Don't know if it is good or not. I will also try Roger's test on the one I have here. I want to clean it up and get the numbers off it for you.
I have a Solo 654 that had a similar problem with a trigger/coil setup, except that I had spark all the time, no matter what I did, I just could not get the stop switch to work. I eventually found that the trigger had lost its connection to the ground wire so no path to ground when the switch was set to off, no matter what you did short of choking the saw out, it would NOT TURN OFF! It was internal to the trigger unit, finally found a trigger off a Homelite 340 that cured the problem.
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I am curious to what you find Tim. Nice job by the way on the drawing.
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I put a sticky in the how to thread on your technique.
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Jeff, the blue coil I have here is marked SEM Amal Sweden 10110500 L02
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When you guys say "trigger", what are you referring to?
Adam
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The box next to the flywheel referred to by HVA as 'electronics box', it has NO spark plug wire, usually only a wire to the actual coil (mounted remotely) and a wire to the on/off switch. Its function is to generate a current pulse. As the flywheel magnets start past it, it begins to generate current and sends it to the coil, after the magnets pass the electronics box it abruptly stops generating current which 'triggers' the HT pulse from the coil which results in the spark at the plug? When the on/off switch is in the 'off' position the current pulse generated by the flywheel passage is shunted directly to ground, no spark occurs and the engine stops.
Two part ignition systems are most probably a result of what was possible with the electronics technology available at the time and restrictions on available space on the saw. Today, technology, miniaturization and packaging have advanced to the point that one piece ignitions are the norm.
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Gotcha, never heard of the primary coil being called the "trigger" it's just a common primary/secondary coil that is triggered by the collapse of the magnetic field! You guys had me thinking this was some sort of advanced way before its time coil that had some sort of super trick triggering device or something!!!! Lol
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Gotcha, never heard of the primary coil being called the "trigger" it's just a common primary/secondary coil that is triggered by the collapse of the magnetic field! You guys had me thinking this was some sort of advanced way before its time coil that had some sort of super trick triggering device or something!!!! Lol
I think it is just the terminology that Dolmar happens to use for that particular part.
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Gotcha, never heard of the primary coil being called the "trigger" it's just a common primary/secondary coil that is triggered by the collapse of the magnetic field! You guys had me thinking this was some sort of advanced way before its time coil that had some sort of super trick triggering device or something!!!! Lol
Correct Adam! However you have to remember both Roger and I are both 'old farts' and our terminology is from yester year, like the Lone Ranger. In reality the collapse of the field is a trigger in so much as it is sensed by another component in the system and an action is taken based on it. (Computer speak)
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Makes sense now! Appreciate the clarification. Adam
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Well I put the multi meter to the 288 last night. He is what I have. Continuity between the components, current being generated at the primary coil (flywheel),and the grounds all check out. I hope to check the other one(with the plug wire) tonight.
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Remember to look at the coil to see what the SEM part # is.
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When you guys say "trigger", what are you referring to?
Adam
I was thinking Jewell or Shilen...lol
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When you guys say "trigger", what are you referring to?
Adam
I was thinking Jewell or Shilen...lol
No just an old Winchester that has been worked over.
Trigger is an electronic term for those who may not be aware of that. Could be why Dolmar uses it in their description.
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When you guys say "trigger", what are you referring to?
Adam
I was thinking Jewell or Shilen...lol
No just an old Winchester that has been worked over.
Trigger is an electronic term for those who may not be aware of that. Could be why Dolmar uses it in their description.
In reality the collapse of the field is a trigger in so much as it is sensed by another component in the system and an action is taken based on it. (Computer speak)! Trigger is a computer term (based on the electrical engineering definition of the term 'trigger') that indicates a 'change in state' of a register upon which either a decision is made or an action is taken. In the case of the ignition the collapse of the magnetic field is what triggers the coil to release current to the spark plug.
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On my Zenoah, the trigger is actually a points replacement in a way. As on the Zenoah, the trigger is activated by the magnet in the flywheel and the coil itself is remotely mounted closer to the spark plug.
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Actually "Trigger" was Roy Roger's horse..........
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And I believe Buttermilk was Dale Evans, and Pat Brady's iron horse (jeep) was Nelliebelle! We are all just proving that we deserve places of 'high regard' in the society of old farts!
;D
We should have an 'old fart's' trivia thread! Fish, I got the package yesterday, thank you!
Tim
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The p/n on this sem secondary coil is:
H 11
10110600
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Rats, thought they might just happen o be the same. This one may have come from a 242, don't know if they will interchange. If anyone knows, jump in. What we have are two blue coils both SEM one marked 10110500 L02 and the other 10110600 H11 anyone know if they will interchange?
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It appears from part numbers the 242 parts are the same as that used on the 1997 spec 288
Electronics box is 501 81 27-02 and the coil is 501 81 28-01same # for the 242.
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I dont know these saws very well so just stopping in.
What is you are looking for and part number if you have one. I'll give a look see at my used parts fishing holes.
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See previous post #57 for part numbers
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JC360, I will test the one I have here using 3000FPS method in the AM and see if it is any good.
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Need both?
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Hadnt hit honey holes yet. But is this it? Says new aftermarket set.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ignition-Module-Coil-for-HUSQVARNA-181-281-XP-288-XP-EPA-501812702-/171151928580
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Yes, however Jeff bought an AM one from Northwoods, tried it and still no spark. He has a message in to Northwoods about it. Perhaps the Chinese parts were DOA!
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Tim, the p/n on this coil is
H 11
10110600
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Howdy,
I didn't see where the OP said he was turning it with a drill but, somebody else mentions it. If you're not spinning at least 400RPM's, you'll never get a spark.
Regards
Gregg
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Jeff, per the above, what did you have your drill motor set at (RPM) while trying to get spark? 400RPM in 60 seconds equates to 6.66 revolutions a second.
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Well Grande Dog, you win. I was turning the drill at about 1/2 to 3/4 of power. I tried it at WOT and whadyyaknow. We haveFire! So i gas her up and oull it over a couple times and it fired off, first pull. Which was the only pull i got because the starter pulley split. Two steps forward and one back. Oh well.
Thanks to all who helped me figurethis out!!
Jeff
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Part # for a 288 starter pulley is 503 48 48-01. I will look round I may have one I can send you. I'm glad the thing is actually running. Thanks to Gregg! +1 Gregg
Here is an OEM pulley $13 + 2.50 ship:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Husqvarna-181-281-288-288XP-starter-pulley-503-48-48-01-5034848-01-/251406226383?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a88fa93cf
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Wow the only problem it was being turned over to slow. I guess I learned something from this thread.
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Jeff, which ignition setup is on the saw, the OEM or the after market? Have you tested both?
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Wow the only problem it was being turned over to slow. I guess I learned something from this thread.
Wow, me too Roger! Thanks Gregg +1!
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I have the AM coil set on it. The original one is probably fine also. Talk about overthinking something. Wow .I have an echo cs-670 on the bench right next to it and it throws a a nice spark with the drill turning it about half speed. I really under estimated the multiplication of rpm's by the starter pulley. Yes, I learned somthing too.
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Well, that is why God put us on this earth, to figure out WTF is going on!
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I laughed out loud when that plug started sparking! I dont remember if i said that it in any of my posts or not. But i remember thinking many times, that when i finally get this figured out, its going to be a stupid simple little detail. And it was.
+1 to all of ya
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Watch yourself when replacing the pulley, the spring under it cuts like a knife! Wear gloves and eye protection! The spring can jump out and create all kinds of problems/damage!
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Yeah! Those things can bite you.
guess i better order that last starter pulley!
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The last four springs I've done, I've been able to keep it in the cavity without it jumping out until I got it all put together. But I sure had trouble about four years ago. Spring jumped out three times. That one, the end had broken on the spring and I didn't have the new end made right.
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Jim, I found a little gizmo at the hobby shop that makes those little circular ends on the springs. You basically heat up the end of the spring, slip it into a slot in the tool and twist the tool round to form the rounded end. It is not in the RC stuff, it is in the clock making supplies, I believe it is really intended for large clock springs. Whatever it works great, I will post some pictures perhaps Al can figure out how to make it on the cheap.
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Jim these look like they would work better than what I use.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bail-Shaping-6-In-1-Bail-Making-Pliers-Multisize-Loop-2-Mm-To-9-Mm-Tool-HD-New-/331145956365?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item4d19d64c0d (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bail-Shaping-6-In-1-Bail-Making-Pliers-Multisize-Loop-2-Mm-To-9-Mm-Tool-HD-New-/331145956365?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item4d19d64c0d)
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Howdy,
I've had my best luck installing those springs with a small needle-nose vice grips. Wind the spring up in your hands to where it's about 10%- 20% smaller than the cavity it fits into. Then clamp unto the spring with the vice grips. The spring will be held in check by the grips, and easily put into place. By pushing down on the spring against the housing will keep it from rapid unwinding. Slowly release the spring until it expands in it's seat in the housing. Then adjust the pulley engagement tab on the center of the spring so that it is just barely touching the center post of the starter housing. This will allow easy installation, and engagement of the pulley to the spring. This works with a lot of different saws and where you clamp the spring involves some Kentucky windage. The upshot of it is that you want to clamp as much of the spring as you can without over-clamping. If you over-clamp the noses of the grips wont allow the spring to go all the way into the housing. The compression release will save a lot of pulleys.
Regards
Gregg
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WTG Grande Dog, I love reading and learning things here.
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Just got a note from JC360 the 288 is now a runner. He sent me three pictures that I will resize and post.
Attached are Jeff's pictures/