Chainsaw Repair
Husqvarna - Stihl - Poulan - Jonsered - Dolmar chainsaws and more => Husqvarna => Topic started by: 1manband on October 28, 2014, 09:13:31 am
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kwf test site lists the following models with tests expiring in 2014.
found here: http://www.kwf-online.de/deutsch/pruef/pruefergebnisse/aagw/motorsaegen/
under the "Anerkennungsende" heading.
HUSQ 576XP
HUSQ 390XP
STIHL MS280
what does this mean? simply a re-test? due possible model emission upgrade/addon? phase out? nothing whatsoever?
thoughts? 572?
-joe
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2002/88 EG is the reg for emissions in Europe I believe. Not sure how it works but perhaps the older saws have to be re-tested to meet a new standards?
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From what EHP has heard and posted, the dirty saws are done. 3120 395 390.
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From what EHP has heard and posted, the dirty saws are done. 3120 395 390.
will the models ehp mentioned be upgraded in some way?
kwf test looks valid for the 395xp until september 2018. the 3120 was not tested, at least data was not posted publicly. the 390xp test sunsets at end of this year.
was trying to find out if this would be a pattern for new or improved saws based on kwf tests.
don't know how the european emissions are tested. but here, the epa does not do its own testing.
regards
-joe
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Got to have Ed fill you in. They already dropped one of them in Canada from what he says. Maybe he will chime in here too.
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snipped from an old (2002) document found here: http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/html/02511204/02511204.htm
"The EPA essentially restricts manufacturers to production in the model year indicated, but allows for distribution of current inventory, regardless of the year manufactured. Provisions within the regulations prevent manufacturers from “stockpiling” inventory before ceasing production of a product line. Consequently, the consumer will be able to buy new chain saws or pumps certified to a prior year, but in limited quantity.
EPA and CARB have an “average banking and trading” emissions program in which a manufacturer is given “credits” for producing cleaner-than-required engines. Manufacturers can trade these credits for permission to produce engines that do not meet the current regulations. In this way, the EPA continues to realize an overall improvement in air quality while providing incentive to the manufacturer. The current ratio for converting credits is approximately eight clean engines to one out-of-compliance engine. Each year the ratio of clean engines will increase, with fewer out-of-compliance engines sold under the credit program. The banking and trading program, which the EPA and CARB closely monitor, allows the consumer to buy a limited number of out-of-compliance pumps or saws."
if this is still valid, they can still sell the old models?
a list of epa certified engines.
The published list of EPA emission-certified engines by model year appears on the Web at http://www.epa.gov/otaq/certdata.htm#smallsiand can be accessed by using Excel or FileMaker Pro software. The database is updated quarterly.
don't have excel or filemaker on this laptop to see if it works.
edit: fixed link
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So the EPA regs for saws are the same as autos, In that the average (emissions) of the fleet must meet a certain requirement?
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There's a couple freebie shareware style spread sheets you can find on the Internet that will run Excell just like you had the real program.
I use "LibreOffice Calc" but I run a Unix system and not Microsoft.
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KWF tests must be renewed after 5 years - simple as that. ;)
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Kevin I'm not going to say much but just sit back and watch as the **** hits the fan, no one wants to believe this **** could happen but sorry to say yes it can and it has happened , Its not going to happen over night as there are alots of saws sitting at ware houses but in 8 months or so it is going to happen
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There are lots of things the EPA can do 'just because' including forcing manufacturers to absorb so much expense to market their products in the US, that it no longer makes economic sense to offer a particular segment of their product line here. Albeit the larger displacement saws are such 'low number' product, that that alone may have an impact on the decision to offer or not to offer a particular product any longer. Problem being that the manufacturer will pass the cost of complying with EPA regs to the end user making an already low number product even more expensive.
The EPA is a bit out of control, and uses its' power to control things it has no business sticking its' nose into. Wait until you have to replace your freezer and the one you want can't be bought in the US because its' packaging does not meet EPA standards for disposable items. Don't laugh, this actually happened to a fortune 50 company, costing them over 100 million dollars.
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The OPE industry is 30 years behind the emission standards of the auto, and power sports
industries.
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The OPE industry is 30 years behind the emission standards of the auto, and power sports
industries.
Good.
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If I may intervene a little.
I get what you guys are saying and can for see what Ed is trying not to say.
We saw a new 3120 in our race arena couple years back, he was a new guy learning the game. He bought 2 new saws from the states to compete with and in the 1st vid it show a heat with that new saw against myself and another race mate in Blue Gum.
We couldn't understand how a new saw could be so slow, the new guy had no idea as it was his 1st run with it and obviously never done any training 1st.
http://youtu.be/kjN4FMYkLs8
After viewing that footage later I realised it was the saw and the operator was just a passenger, so I rang him and asked if I could help him get that new saw somewhat competitive.
I got the saw and tested it myself
http://youtu.be/-ZjzHh0a3ak
I had never seen a 3120 as doe as it was then realised it was governed down to 9000 somewhere instead of 12 which our Aussie saws are sold.
His chain was not helping but it still wasn't allowed to run out at all.
Since testing that day he allowed me to swap that Green module for a standard 272 module and I done the usual flywheel advancement. The difference it made was remarkable and the saw at least ran out to the 12- 13 mark making cutting much easier.
I can't find the vid after I changed the electrics, it made it equal to any Aussie stock saw with the same mods, then I gutted the muffler and played with the carby in which that stock saw looked like a 1/2 competitive saw for novice sawyers anyway.
He would not let me do it up internally as he wanted to get used to it 1st, he still is competing with it and likes it very much.
My whole point is the difference between new saws sold off in different parts of the world meeting different standards.
(1st vid shown only to show the sound of that saw and not to humiliate the competitor as he had to just wait on the saw.)
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The OPE industry is 30 years behind the emission standards of the auto, and power sports
industries.
Good.
my view... both good and bad.
think 2T technology is mostly driven by changes in emissions standards. seems the consumer ends up paying for the r&d.
don't want 2T's to go away, turning chainsaw GTG's into "olde tyme steam and engine shows" at the local county fairgrounds. the tech advances keep 2T's alive??
big orange for example, just published a patent, (not thier's exactly, a bought patent license), for direct injection technology for hand held equipment. i for one think this tech is interesting. the ease (joke), of the way patents get granted these days without needing a working example (prototype) will most likely fuel the other manufacturers to come out with thier own DI with slight changes shortly (if they have not done so already).
link to recent 2014 here:
http://www.4-traders.com/HUSQVARNA-AB-6498674/news/Husqvarna--Patent-Issued-for-Two-Stroke-Internal-Combustion-Engine-18202539/
IMO, this kind of tech helps keep 2T's alive.
-joe
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The Aprilia 50cc scooter has been using their Ditech direct injection system for a number of n years now and it is much cleaner and produces big power for 50cc's I'll see if I can find a link
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DI, will be huge improvement no doubt. FI pales in comparison.
looking closer at the handheld di patent... there are some bugs to iron out... with cold starting, especially in cold weather. it would require use of either FI or a small carb, or some type of case injection for initial starting purposes, before the DI kicks in for regular operation. since it has no transfer ports (?) other than air, seems as if it would not build up transfer port fuel charge pre-heating like conventional motors? as least thats what i see.
curious to see how aprilla addressed these things.
-joe
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http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?157656-FAQ-How-does-the-Ditech-Engine-Work
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the husq patent differs from the aprilla. the aprilla is a case reed, with no starting carb or FI. husq has no reeds, needs a carb or FI, and still has at least one transfer port and exhaust port like a traditional piston ported motor.
husq patent claim says "ease of starting" which is vgood.
unlike the aprilla motor which cannot be modified for extra power, the husq may(?) potentially be modified, since it uses a carb to FI to provide extra starting fuel for the savvy power mongers, if it can be fed more fuel. guessing that the DI will not be adjustable here folks, unless you are good with computer code and/or have a supply or higher #/hour injectors.
images of original patent application here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120024275.pdf
verbage here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2012/0024275.html
actual approved patent here: http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/week12/OG/html/1400-4/US08677954-20140325.html
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Husqvarna 395 has just been recently taken down from kwf test site.
Data is now not available for view:
http://www.kwf-online.de/deutsch/pruef/pruefergebnisse/aagw/motorsaegen/2980_13.pdf
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Cool stuff. Looks like temp, MAS or a TPS, and rpm is monitored. Might be a few creative ways to "fool" the processor if the cylinder head temp Sensor plays a significant role in fuel flow.
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yup.
if there is even a whisper that it will go into production, would wait for that.
-joe
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got some other info that i posted somewhere. gonna go delete the thread if i can. wtf was i thinking?????
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Future of saw Emissions/Fuel Controls?
Takes between 2 to 3 years from the time a patent application idea is filed to be granted a patent in the USA.
However, not all patents granted are actually used in future production. Using this timetable, the following
could be a hint of what is coming down the pike.
2014 patent applications (+/- 2017 production?):
Echo (Yamabiko): Electric (solenoid) controlled main jet passage.
Stihl: Multi-ECU controlled carb/ignition engine management.
Split intake tract.
Tamper-proof deeply recessed mix-adjusting needle design.
Husqvarna: Exhaust Lamda sensor. (O2 sensor).
2013 patent applications (+/- 2016 production?):
Husqvarna: Method of adding extra fuel (carburetor), for engine start-up.
Stihl: Crankcase Lamda sensor. (O2 sensor).
Device to permit optimum ignition timing in partial load (mid throttle) positions.
Fuel pressure regulator for fuel injected application.
Multi sensor ignition coil high voltage control.
Dolmar: Combustion chamber, Lamda sensor. (O2 sensor).
2012 patent applications (+/- 2015 production?):
Husqvarna: Direct injection system.
Inlet tract improvement device to prevent backflow from crankcase into inlet tract.
Stihl: Piston recess connectect to intake tract for intake fuel mix control.
Device for alternating ignition angle before tdc used for RPM control.
2011 patent applications (+/- 2014 production?):
Stihl: Low pressure fuel injection control method/device.
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Note: This list does not include patent information from Zama and Walbro.
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......erased it fom there.
................don't sell anything, so no need to post any info that just a few folks would get over there.
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I love the idea of all this tech making its way into saws but the reality of it all is that it is going to complicate diagnoses and add a lot of cost to repairing saws. pushing us eventually more and more towards the throw away society
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I love the idea of all this tech making its way into saws but the reality of it all is that it is going to complicate diagnoses and add a lot of cost to repairing saws. pushing us eventually more and more towards the throw away society
agree. those who work on more than one brand will have to get brand specific software/hardware? until, or if, the manufacturers agree on a common connector for diagnostics.
this kind of thing eradicated some generations long auto service stations in my area. maybe this would help dealers buisness by folks who have out of warranty equipment? what husq is doing, by not letting the consumer update software is to support its dealers. can respect that, but leaves everyone else hanging.
consumers too? imo, at first the consumer will be ok, when the warranty is still in effect. then SOL, unless they buy a "code reader", software/hardware connector.
could be the writing is already on the wall.
not every issue can be diagnosed with software. but if it's an fuel issue, and you cannot read future o2 sensors or fault codes, it would make diagnosis more difficult.
-joe
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Cool stuff. Looks like temp, MAS or a TPS, and rpm is monitored. Might be a few creative ways to "fool" the processor if the cylinder head temp Sensor plays a significant role in fuel flow.
if it turns out to be a CHTsensor, possibly an insulating washer under the plug??
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Be interesting to see where this goes. If the accompanying diagnostic tool can pinpoint the sensor/module issue I don't think repair aspect issue will be so bad. Might be costly until they become mainstream
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Looks like a washer under the plug in the patent drawing. Seems a little funky and slow reading?
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Looks like a washer under the plug in the patent drawing. Seems a little funky and slow reading?
if CHT was reading high, an insulating washer (under the CHT) washer as i suggested would make things worse!!
high CHT indeed needs more fuel.
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Went back and looked over the drawings and verbiage and the description seems really broad in terms of the injection. Says it could be low psi or high BAR injection pressure. Seems like it could apply to a broad range of already existing management systems. What's unique here or am I missing something?
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from what i seem to get out of it is... its different because its injected directly into the combustion chamber. the FI (or carb) is used primarily for starting only.
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I love the idea of all this tech making its way into saws but the reality of it all is that it is going to complicate diagnoses and add a lot of cost to repairing saws. pushing us eventually more and more towards the throw away society
agree. those who work on more than one brand will have to get brand specific software/hardware? until, or if, the manufacturers agree on a common connector for diagnostics.
this kind of thing eradicated some generations long auto service stations in my area. maybe this would help dealers buisness by folks who have out of warranty equipment? what husq is doing, by not letting the consumer update software is to support its dealers. can respect that, but leaves everyone else hanging.
consumers too? imo, at first the consumer will be ok, when the warranty is still in effect. then SOL, unless they buy a "code reader", software/hardware connector.
could be the writing is already on the wall.
not every issue can be diagnosed with software. but if it's an fuel issue, and you cannot read future o2 sensors or fault codes, it would make diagnosis more difficult.
-joe
i doubt the manufactures are going to agree on a single platform or codes. look at the automotive world. up until 1995 everybody did their own thing and only after the government mandated that everybody use the same codes and connector did that happen. OBDII was a great idea and works ok for accessing general information on all the different manufactures cars but even now they still have OBDII generic and OBDII manufacturer specific codes. even though the government mandated they all use the same codes dont even think about working on a VW unless you have the VW software. i use a aftermarket scanner for cars that was $4000 new 6 years ago. $1000 every couple years for updates and as we speak i am looking at updating to a completely new scanner because mine is too slow to comunicate with some of the newer cars out there. $5000- $10000 for the latest and greatest scanner out there right now.
Transfer all that to a chainsaw and i dont think the money is there for the aftermarket to build a scanner or the government to mandate they all use the same operating system so that if you had the stihl software you could plug it in to a husky.
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Husq AB
new motor = 65.1 cc
3.91 kW = 5.24 HP
@10200 RPM (edit: 10200 was the emission test rpm used. actual max kW rpm unknown).
engine family HVX
specifically EHVXS 0715AD
too many rpms for a blower or brush-cutter
more kW than 372
hair less than 576
-joe
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Joe
That's interesting. That certification number appears on the EPA website but I can't find any models on Husky website with those displacement or HP specs.
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Sounds pretty sweet. Have to imagine these saws will rip and have some great torque across the power band.
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Good HP for 65cc
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http://www.epa.gov/otaq/certdata.htm
scroll down........
non-road small s-i engine cert data
2014
line 473 (somewhere between 473 and 582 anyways)
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Got it. Thk
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.......the 365 is 65.1 cc
....but the motor which may be 'new', is listed as being quite a bit stronger (+ 1.24 HP) than the 365?
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Husq AB
new motor = 65.1 cc
3.91 kW = 5.24 HP
@10200 RPM (edit: 10200 was the emission test rpm used. actual max kW rpm unknown).
engine family HVX
specifically EHVXS 0715AD
too many rpms for a blower or brush-cutter
more kW than 372
hair less than 576
-joe
3.91 kW = 5.24 hp(i) = 5.32 hp(m).
More kw than 372xp? Ok, looks like .01 kW more - except the 372 number is more rounded off, so we don't really know.... ;D
Interesting anyway!
It could of course be for a non-xp version of the "572xp" - but if so it is a departure from how they did it with the 560 and 550 "families" ???
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Husq AB
new motor = 65.1 cc
3.91 kW = 5.24 HP
@10200 RPM (edit: 10200 was the emission test rpm used. actual max kW rpm unknown).
engine family HVX
specifically EHVXS 0715AD
too many rpms for a blower or brush-cutter
more kW than 372
hair less than 576
-joe
3.91 kW = 5.24 hp(i) = 5.32 hp(m).
More kw than 372xp? Ok, looks like .01 kW more - except the 372 number is more rounded off, so we don't really know.... ;D
Interesting anyway!
It could of course be for a non-xp version of the "572xp" - but if so it is a departure from how they did it with the 560 and 550 "families" ???
-don't know what power figures you are quoting, because they do vary between continents as you already know.
-below you can also see that the power rating can change not only because of heated handles, seats and power steering as on the 576, but also between families as in the 395.
-the difference between the 395's is 0.68 kW = 0.91 HP.........quite the difference.
-would be easy to check the epa cert sticker on the saw to see what you are actually getting.
my source epa gov, comparing apples to apples.
latest emissions certified motors
'new?' 65.1 cc ***engine family EHVXS 0715AD***3.91 kW
372xp? 70.7 cc**************EHVXS 0715AE***3.64 kW
576xp? 73.5 cc**************EHVXS 0745AB***3.61 kW
576xp? 73.5 cc**************EHVXS 0745AB***3.61 kW
576xp? 73.5 cc**************EHVXS 0745AC***4.04 kW
576xp? 73.5 cc**************EHVXS 0745AD***3.84 kW
390xp 87.9 cc**************EHVXS 0885AA***4.42 kW
395xp 93.6 cc**************EHVXS 0945AB***4.68 kW
395xp 93.6 cc**************EHVXS 0945AC***5.36 kW
3120xp 118.8cc**************EHVXS 1195AA***5.75 kW
-on a different note, it seems odd that all the stihl saws certified in late 2014 were made in Brazil.
-joe
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Something obviously is up with those kW numbers - it doesn't look like they truely are max kW numbers. The rpm they were arrived at could well be a result of some EPA parameter, for all I know....
Stihl engines made in Brazil is nothing new, as far as I know - but I don't know if they all are made there.
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downloaded older epa emission files from previous years.
the 65.1 cc is not a new motor family if i am reading the older year charts right?
the engine family EHVXS 0715AD dates going back to 2013, 2012, 2011.
the first letter seems to be the year. A=2010; B=2011;.....and so on.
in 2011 was called BHVXS 0715D; 2012 = CHVXS 0715D; 2013 = DHVXS 0715D; 2014 = EHVXS 0715AD
there is no explanation of the numbering system. guessing here because the power level remained unchanged through the years.
from 2004 to 2010, the 65.1 cc motor has a completely different numbering system, 4HVXS 0655RB to AHVXS 0655AB along with lower power levels.
looks like 65.1 cc motor started with a saw called the "Husqvarna 265RX" ??
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265RX is a brushcutter/clearing saw. A heavy duty, overgrown weedeater.....
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(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrh8Ouy6BxB_gQJaZZIz78fHvbpExuhEG15FPhdy30F_oIbd8z)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSuRdO3nU8FT7XAICUlyyzUt75CAtqEuJaOdCyst3d2X3T7s5JG)
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Weren't those forestry clearing saws of that Era based on chainsaw variants? We had a 35cc clearing that was very Close to the 335xpt
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I'll have to look in some of my older catalogs. IIRC, the 265RX was still in the catalog as of 2003 or 2004. Real beast. The engine does look similar to a 2-series Husky (262XP, etc) IIRC.
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I'll have to look in some of my older catalogs. IIRC, the 265RX was still in the catalog as of 2003 or 2004. Real beast. The engine does look similar to a 2-series Husky (262XP, etc) IIRC.
As far as I know, it was a late version of the model 65 engine of the late 1960 and the 1970s. My brother likes to put Husky 77 top ends on those clearing saws.
They didn't disappear as early as 2004 here (the last OM was dated 2007). As I recall it, they were replaced by the 355.