Chainsaw Repair

Husqvarna - Stihl - Poulan - Jonsered - Dolmar chainsaws and more => Pioneer => Topic started by: 1manband on April 29, 2017, 11:45:43 am

Title: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on April 29, 2017, 11:45:43 am
so far:  cleaned about 20 years of crud off the 40 year old saw.  un-seized motor by soaking in marvel oil for 3 days.

do not know about these saws... taking things apart to learn.

trying to get the rust off the bar and chain with a vinegar soak for a few days to see if it works.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on April 29, 2017, 11:52:47 am
progress so far:
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on April 29, 2017, 11:55:44 am
chain soaking and WICO ignition.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: dutchsawdoctor on April 29, 2017, 02:58:25 pm
Intersting to see if it works with rust remover
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on April 29, 2017, 04:35:17 pm
Intersting to see if it works with rust remover

after 4 hours of soaking.  wiped off bar with nylon brush and paper towel.  going to let bar soak overnight.

chain is making bubbles!  hahahaha.  some sawdust is now floating on top.  i did not take it out to look at it closer.

i probably should have degreased everything before vinegar soak.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on April 30, 2017, 07:06:26 am
after 18 hours:
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on April 30, 2017, 07:09:53 am
after a couple of minutes of light hand sanding and some oil.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: dutchsawdoctor on April 30, 2017, 11:06:10 am
Coool +1
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: RoyM on April 30, 2017, 12:03:04 pm
That cleaned up very nicely. I would like to find a 600 series that hasn't been beat to death, they are torque monsters.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on April 30, 2017, 07:52:27 pm
That cleaned up very nicely. I would like to find a 600 series that hasn't been beat to death, they are torque monsters.

i have never seen one before this one.  my hope is just to get it spinning.  hope you find one Roy.  they do not seem that heavy for their size and very well built.

Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on April 30, 2017, 07:59:26 pm
some gut photos.

weird head.

interesting way the head is orientated on the cylinder.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on April 30, 2017, 08:02:28 pm
the machine work in the chamber amazes me.  i am easily amazed, but it took at least 2 cuts on different planes to make it.  very cool to me.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 01, 2017, 06:39:26 pm
next will cc this old thing to see how it ticks before further disassembly.

hope to get squish and trapped comp this evening.  got to mix up some putty.

so far beer based plan is to vinegar soak the cylinder to get rid of the rust ring.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 01, 2017, 09:01:07 pm
little progress: squish and chamber volume.  no trapped comp yet.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 01, 2017, 09:07:59 pm
/
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 02, 2017, 09:44:44 pm
rechecked chamber volume.  13cc. 

took everything apart, soaking in vinegar.  do not know if this will actually work for cleaning.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: RoyM on May 02, 2017, 09:46:40 pm
CN Rail was running them into the early 80's when we could no longer easily source parts, the only saw that had the torque to cut creosoted ties.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 03, 2017, 09:02:43 pm
CN Rail was running them into the early 80's when we could no longer easily source parts, the only saw that had the torque to cut creosoted ties.

cool!
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 03, 2017, 09:10:05 pm
before and after 22 hours of soaking.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 03, 2017, 09:14:00 pm
/
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 03, 2017, 09:17:41 pm
after some soap and hot water using a non-scratch pad.

worked on the head ok.  piston and cylinder not really any better.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 03, 2017, 09:26:24 pm
don't like worrying about flammable solvents catching fire while i am at work.

cylinder will need some honing.

vinegar loosened the stuck rings a little bit after the soak, but not free yet.

vinegar turned the piston pin black.

have piston soaking in a bio friendly citrus cleaner to see how it works.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 04, 2017, 05:45:57 pm
...getting somewhere with the piston now.
----------------------------------------------------------------

vinegar in gas tank.  soaked for 3 hours.  rinsed it out with water.  then soaked one more hour. rinsed.

inside of tank turned black.

did not dare to soak overnight, do not think i would have a gas tank left.  have to think it is eating the magnesium.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 04, 2017, 07:39:43 pm
trapped and geometric comp
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 3000 FPS on May 04, 2017, 11:00:25 pm
Love the pics so far.   Interesting saw to say the least.   That magnesium gas tank was sure boiling. 
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 06, 2017, 04:55:34 pm
Love the pics so far.   Interesting saw to say the least.   That magnesium gas tank was sure boiling.

cool.  hope i get it spinning.  the gas tank had plenty of grit and corrosion pitting.  not sure the vinegar got it with all that bubbling.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 06, 2017, 05:01:14 pm
spent some time this afternoon measuring piston and a few more volume checks.

kept measuring until i could duplicate the number consistently.

piston skirt length varies a bit in this piston.

Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 06, 2017, 05:11:32 pm
a few more volume checks.

-would be much easier with a graduated cylinder.  have to use what i have.

hard to see in the photo but filled to exh. port roof.

so far one clue is there to show .....why roy says these saws have some guts.

piston 2nd ring groove has closed up a couple thou.  taking care cleaning it in case i need to reuse it.

piston now soaking in straight simple green cleaner.



Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: HolmenTree on May 08, 2017, 11:51:04 am
1manband, very nice project. I always wanted to restore one of these old girls. Almost had one once like brand new.
Like Roy said the Canadian National Railway used to use them.  I had a tree removal customer about 10 years ago who worked for the railway and he took ownership of one that only ran a tank of fuel through it. The painted letters on the bar weren't even scratched.
Well about 5 years later when I learned the history on these saws I called the fellow up and asked him if he still wanted to sell it. Well he had a sad reply, he said it was collecting dust for too long in his shop so he threw it out in the garbage dump :o

Anyways here's some history on the saw. I even got a copy of a parts manual for it

The 650 was introduced in 1964 and discontinued in 1976. There was also the 750 and 850.
The design of these saws started way back in 1956 with the IEL/Pioneer RA model as my other pics show.

Now check out the very last pic of the Stihl Contra/Lightening introduced in 1959.
Check out the Stihl's design similarities to the 1956-57 Pioneer RA.
Looks to me the Stihl 090 was a IEL/Pioneer imitation.

Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 09, 2017, 05:59:40 pm
enjoy reading your posts holmen, i always get a quite a history lesson.

appreciate posting the parts list to boot!

123cc 800... just wow.

at the bottom of the parts list, reads that a crank modification was made in later models.  wonder if the late models had a 1 piece crank?...or something else?  mine looks to have an earlier serial number before the change.

similarities indeed to the 090.  competition between manufacturers back then must have brought out the big guns, or was that just what the loggers needed at the time for big timber?
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: HolmenTree on May 09, 2017, 06:50:41 pm
By looking at the 25 cent price on the front cover of that parts manual I would think it's from the mid to late 1960's.
So I'm thinking by 1976 the 650 probably had a modern 2 or 3 piece crank without the bolt on caps on the lower con rod bearing.
But my brothers Mac 101 kart saws have rod caps (I'm positive if my memory is correct) and with a little weight balance welded to the crank those Macs screamed past 16K. ;D
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 13, 2017, 07:41:14 pm
piston so far.

2.246, while the bore looks to be 2.252.

no luck sourcing a new one yet.  if i cannot find a new one going to send this one out for some work.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 13, 2017, 07:49:43 pm
port mapped the jug and measured the con rod.

piston needle bearing is shot.  believe it is a timken brand bearing, but cannot find my magnifying glass to read the numbers on it.

cannot remember what this king of bearing is called, but think it is a high load/low speed type?  hope it easy to find at a bearing supply house.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 17, 2017, 07:34:44 pm
no progress in the last few days.  working some long hours.

my plans for the piston will most likely ruin it before it goes up and down at all.  hahaha.

side note:  put a pair of rusty calipers (no dial) into the vinegar jug....forgot about them.  parts on them dissolved.  poof.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: HolmenTree on May 18, 2017, 08:58:34 am
1manband, any potential in the 650 being a race saw? ;)
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 18, 2017, 08:38:16 pm
1manband, any potential in the 650 being a race saw? ;)

...do not know.  also do not know what you consider fast/race worthy.

if you throw enough money and time at something, sometimes it works out.  everything is fast for the first 2 weeks.  that is not my plan.  will toss some money into it though.

baby steps for me.  have to put the stock measurements into the lotto machine to be able to first compare it to a more modern saw of similar motor size.  will concentrate my $ and efforts on the piston to get it into shape.  if luck is with me and it works, will hopefully lead me to some options.

just thoughts on the following, i am not a chainsaw guy so take it all with a grain of salt. some things that might not allow going crazy with this motor: iron sleeve, don't think a large overbore is possible to run anything but a custom piston.  re-sleeving maybe an option, but the aluminum around the liner kind of thin. maybe nik plating would do it.  piston is the first hurdle.  over bore would also diminish the size of the transfer ports because they breath off the base.  big end crank has a split cage bearing...maybe one piece crank could replace to run some kind of off the shelf piston. con rod little end has a big hole, piston options again are issue because so far cannot find a bearing that can neck down enough to run a more common size pin.

again, maybe all these things can be overcome easily with something i'm not seeing.  thinking so far that there must be better platforms to start from.

i'm digging this saw. just making it mine.  hahaha. fun.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: HolmenTree on May 18, 2017, 10:27:41 pm
Always thought you were a saw guy.
The 650 has alot of similarities to a 105cc Stihl 090 . Same 40 mm stroke . Cast iron liner like on my YZ125 can be oversized many times.
Whether you want it for a firewooder or a tuned pipe power bucker in a hot saw race. It has good  ergonomic potential for both.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 19, 2017, 07:25:05 pm
Always thought you were a saw guy.
The 650 has alot of similarities to a 105cc Stihl 090 . Same 40 mm stroke . Cast iron liner like on my YZ125 can be oversized many times.
Whether you want it for a firewooder or a tuned pipe power bucker in a hot saw race. It has good  ergonomic potential for both.

too many different motors out there to learn for me to be a saw guy.

thanks.....will have to look into the 090.   

that's the rub.  for the yz, they make oversize pistons up to 0.080.  has a thicker liner.  great platform with cheap off the shelf parts.

my saw is past the wear limit, at least for me......0.006" after i hone it it will be a no-go with the stock piston.  there are no 2.25" (57mm) oversize that i can find that have a 5/8" wrist pin hole.  cannot find even a new stock one.  have to send the the piston out to get it built up to get things tighter.  still checking bearing listings to see if i could get by with running some other piston with smaller pin, but no luck so far.

-joe
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 22, 2017, 07:48:25 pm
whoever designed this motor was one smart cookie.  the following was easily seen by some, but i catch on slow.

IMO, they knew that the ring ends would snag on the ports if they were too large, so they got around it in a cool way.  slanted the edge of the piston.  as the slant passes by the port, it opens the port sooner making these tiny ports flow like they were a bit larger.  funky head had to be.

specific time areas taken at 2500 rpm, because 5000 is max rpm of motor listed on acres.

note: keep your eye on the jennings recommended numbers on the right for an eye opener.

photo 1 = piston

photo 2 = time areas taken from top flat of piston crown as it passes to open the exh and trans ports.

photo 3 = time areas taken mid-way down the slanted edge as it " " " " " " "

photo 4 = time areas taken of bottom of slant as it " " " "

my guess is that it actually starts flowing somewhere between the flat top and mid-way positions.  what do you guys think about all this?
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 3000 FPS on May 22, 2017, 08:35:08 pm
What does that slanted top above the piston do to the direction of flow.   
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 22, 2017, 09:42:06 pm
What does that slanted top above the piston do to the direction of flow.   

sorry, should have posted photos.  forget to that yall don't have the parts in hand.

imo, think it is to get the mix going away from the edge of the piston?  if it stays there bad things happen. pre ignit/deton, wasted fuel, heat...smokey's book, good read.

Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 3000 FPS on May 22, 2017, 10:44:49 pm
Ok now that I see the head mated to the piston it makes more sense.     Pretty cool design.   
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 26, 2017, 09:42:14 pm
what the numbers look like. 
the far right column....is what i look at to balance the ports.
you can see what needs changing if possible.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 27, 2017, 08:57:09 am
...not sure yet of the numbers to shoot for.  still have to cc the case to see what rpm it is tuned for and go from there.  the bigger hurdle is even getting to this point.  depends on the success of putting a locating pin in there.  hahaha.  the trans and exh do look a little lean from the previous post.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 27, 2017, 09:15:08 am
took another look at the needle bearing.  still cannot find the magnifying glass.  hahaha. took 15 photos to get a clear one and enlarged.

torrington B-108 full compliment style

going to get one of those.  it is rated up to 5000 rpm high load.

also going to get caged style higher rpm type of same size.

best bearing cross-reference and size listing that i have found:  http://www.nationalprecision.com/needle-bearings/drawn-cup.php
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 28, 2017, 07:32:20 am
these folks still make a ring set for these and other big old saw motors that do not have ring locating pins.  very good quality usa made, used them in bikes.

set #8207 fits the 650
2.25" - 2@ 1/16" rings

https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/ring-finder
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 3000 FPS on May 28, 2017, 10:15:43 am
these folks still make a ring set for these and other big old saw motors that do not have ring locating pins.  very good quality usa made, used them in bikes.

set #8207 fits the 650
2.25" - 2@ 1/16" rings

https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/ring-finder

I was looking at that link for rings.   They list rings for Homelite chainsaws and McCulloch chainsaws. 
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 29, 2017, 06:45:47 pm
correction to the stock numbers.

for the intake incorrectly used ATDC instead of BTDC for the durations.

the intake TA is actually off the chart.  so much for a long dur intake having no torque for this saw.  hahaha.  other things are at play.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 29, 2017, 06:50:34 pm
some crankcase info.

sorry did not get photo of wrist pin volume... i put enough fluid in syringe to be sure the pin would be covered, read the line.  put the pin in the syringe and then read new line.  the difference is the volume.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 29, 2017, 06:53:32 pm
some more crankcase related info.

can see where the motor likey.  hahaha.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on May 31, 2017, 08:43:22 pm
looking at this a more... think i can see what mr. holmentree was pointing at.  thank you sir.  took me a bit.
Title: Re: pioneer 650
Post by: 1manband on June 03, 2017, 11:15:03 am
was looking into just how far the motor could be taken when the stock unpegged rings are kept.

no machining.  depends on what yall consider machining.

stock ports are round in shape.

this is what i would/will do if i end up destroying the piston.