Chainsaw Repair

Husqvarna - Stihl - Poulan - Jonsered - Dolmar chainsaws and more => Poulan => Topic started by: Cut4fun on May 30, 2012, 02:11:30 pm

Title: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun on May 30, 2012, 02:11:30 pm
I may have my 1st Poulan next week if my brother decides to sell it. It's a 8500 he bought new in the mid 1980s. It has a working chainbrake [all saws sold in Canada since 1980 had to have chainbrakes, the Stihl 090 seemed to escape that for a few yrs]. This 8500 was the last "true Poulan" pro saw before Electrolux took over in '86. Poulan built a beautiful saw here, 85cc ,well balanced, fast and light. It competed with the Stihl 064 which came out in '86.

If any of you guys have never run a 8500, then you missed out experiencing a great saw.


Willard does this old true for your brothers 8500 up your way?     Poulan Lime Green and Black in U.S. and  Orange and Black in Canada?

I seen Mark's poulan 3000 that was orange and black that came from up north.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Old Iron Logging on June 09, 2012, 02:00:28 pm
Looking for info on a 8500 Poulan. Guy came in the shop with 2 of them. He wants me to port one for him.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: rms61moparman on June 09, 2012, 05:58:53 pm
OH MY WORD!!! :o

What a sacrilege!
It's his saw I guess. :'(


Mike
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Old Iron Logging on June 09, 2012, 07:14:36 pm
What makes them special? Poulan never sold in any numbers here.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: rms61moparman on June 09, 2012, 09:01:10 pm
That's one thing that makes them special!!!
They are basically the "Holy Grail" of Poulan saws.
The very last of the 4200-8500 series.
There were a few Poulans with bigger displacement but none more powerful were made by POULAN.
It was the most refined and argueably the best of the series as well.

EVERYONE who collects Poulan saws is looking for one..................or 21!


Mike
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Old Iron Logging on June 10, 2012, 06:29:53 am
The guy has 2 runners and 1 parts saw. He bought them new for next to nothing. They sat on a shelf at a hardware store for years.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun on June 10, 2012, 10:21:55 am
The guy has 2 runners and 1 parts saw. He bought them new for next to nothing. They sat on a shelf at a hardware store for years.

Whats he want in trade?   I got some huskys and 1 stihl left.  ;)  Even a good running stock jonsered 2171.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Old Iron Logging on June 10, 2012, 12:00:50 pm
I will ask him when he comes back in for the parts he ordered. He wants to have a saw that his boys can run in a small race.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: rms61moparman on June 10, 2012, 12:55:32 pm

I would like to see a ported 5200/5400/8500, but would also like to see a hacked one used for the job and not something pristine.
As I said though it's his saw.


Mike
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: HolmenTree on June 11, 2012, 10:14:31 pm
I may have my 1st Poulan next week if my brother decides to sell it. It's a 8500 he bought new in the mid 1980s. It has a working chainbrake [all saws sold in Canada since 1980 had to have chainbrakes, the Stihl 090 seemed to escape that for a few yrs]. This 8500 was the last "true Poulan" pro saw before Electrolux took over in '86. Poulan built a beautiful saw here, 85cc ,well balanced, fast and light. It competed with the Stihl 064 which came out in '86.

If any of you guys have never run a 8500, then you missed out experiencing a great saw.


Willard does this old true for your brothers 8500 up your way?     Poulan Lime Green and Black in U.S. and  Orange and Black in Canada?

I seen Mark's poulan 3000 that was orange and black that came from up north.
Sorry I missed this thread Kevin. My brothers 8500 is green / black.
 He told me he won't part with it, he says he still plans on racing it in the future, I told him he better hurray up because he 's now 64 yrs old.ha ha.
Ron Hartill 7 time world lumberjack champ had great success with his factory modified Poulan 8500 in the 1980s, full circle crank, cutoff head, kart carb, tune pipe etc. Ron was Poulan's PR rep, his son Dale also had great success with his own tune piped 8500 also. But as Ron once told me Dale was very quick in hand to eye, but some times his hands were a little too fast causing errors.

I have some old pics of them, I'll try and post later.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: OhioGregg on July 06, 2012, 12:15:06 pm
Don'y know who this is..but they are using a Poulan for racing. ;D
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f201/Gregg500/Poulanracer.jpg)

Here is a nice Poulan ad with a 8500 on it.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f201/Gregg500/8500.jpg)

Here is Ron Hartill in a Poulan ad.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f201/Gregg500/Page2.jpg)

Gregg,

Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on August 30, 2014, 09:44:43 am
Just in case the new owner of this 8500 hasnt seen these ads.


Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Eccentric on August 30, 2014, 05:23:14 pm
I have seen them, but thanks for the reminder Kevin.8)
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Eccentric on August 30, 2014, 05:25:17 pm
Don'y know who this is..but they are using a Poulan for racing. ;D
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f201/Gregg500/Poulanracer.jpg)

Gregg,



Hard to tell from the pic...........but to my eyes that's an OD green topped Poulan 4900 running against that Stihl.  Very nice.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: fossil on September 04, 2014, 09:00:24 pm
The only older Poulans that came in different colors in Canada were the ones assembled at the Skil plant in Toronto. The 4200 - 8500 saws all came from the US with the same colors as the US saws.
Very few of that series were sold in Ontario (my area) according to the the Ontario distributor. I have only seen a two 4200's and one 5200 come up for sale. There are not well known up here and very few people have ever heard of them let alone run one.
They are definitely in a class by themselves and I am very lucky to have one of each.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Eccentric on September 05, 2014, 04:48:59 am
They are great saws Tim.  The OD green top cover is the 'standard' color for a 4900.  Only model in that series with that color top cover.  Here's mine.  To recoup funds and get CAD a bit more under control I may be putting it up for sale soon (minus the full wrap).  These saws are multiplying in my shop.....

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/Poulan%20Chainsaws/CAM00536_zps6301597a.jpg)
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: fossil on September 05, 2014, 12:50:36 pm
I hear you on the CAD thing. I'm trying to resist buying anything more unless a very few that I've always wanted come up. I have to build some shelves or something to get all the saws off the floor and then start fixing up what I have and maybe (gulp) ditching a few that I won't miss too much.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on September 05, 2014, 01:09:29 pm
I have owned or ran about everything I wanted to, so not looking for any saws at all anymore.  I have been moving back into guns and shooting more and other hobbies.  :-\
Loosing 3 of  my past sawing in woods up north isnt helping any either.

Poulan 4900 would be hard to move out and find something to replace. Hmmmmm what is it I wonder.  ;)

Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Eccentric on September 05, 2014, 03:36:13 pm
I have owned or ran about everything I wanted to, so not looking for any saws at all anymore.  I have been moving back into guns and shooting more and other hobbies.  :-\
Loosing 3 of  my past sawing in woods up north isnt helping any either.

Poulan 4900 would be hard to move out and find something to replace. Hmmmmm what is it I wonder.  ;)



I think you've figured it out Kevin.  I've been transitioning more  away from 'collectors' saws more to saws that I use.  That 4900 is just too nice (and too 'rare' a model) to beat up doing work.  My conscience won't allow it.

Since I picked up that cherry Craftsman 5.2 last year, I have the 'pretty GTG saw' for this series covered.  The 4900 won't get used much anymore.  I used it quite a bit last year and it performed fine............................but the inbound 8500 will take its place in the working stable. 

I will also be building at least two green 5200's from my pile of parts carcasses (probably one to keep and one to sell).......and I have a 4200 inbound.  Gotta think about shelf space. 

Need to do the same with the 82cc Homelites.  Right now i have several that all need work.  Some minor and some major.  I'll end up with 4-5 runners (actually more like 5-6 runners now that i think about it).  That's silly...

I've been getting back into shooting and a couple other hobbies (that are more family friendly) too....
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on September 05, 2014, 03:40:07 pm
Yep agreed. Thats why I find, run and like the nice one, but I cant keep them. I pass them onto others.   
I dont need lookers, I just want cutters I can bang around.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Eccentric on September 05, 2014, 03:45:25 pm
I'll be retaining very few 'lookers'.  There's the cherry XL-12 that my wife bought me for my birthday a number of years ago.....................the sweet Craftsman 2.3PS/VL that Tim sent me, my Craftsman 5.2, and a couple more.  Those only get ran at GTG's.  The rest have to earn their shelf space.8)
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: 3000 FPS on September 05, 2014, 10:45:58 pm
I have used almost all my saws, but by far the ones in the 54 to 68cc range get the most use.   Some of the older bigger saws will not see much use though with all those 505's hanging around and of course the 2100cd.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 22, 2017, 11:02:29 pm
For Sale pretty close ;) but about 3 times what I would pay to just put it in the right persons hands.

Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: mdavlee . on October 23, 2017, 01:32:03 am
It looks good. Have to be $300 or less for me to pick it up for a wall hanger
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 23, 2017, 09:02:02 am
It looks good. Have to be $300 or less for me to pick it up for a wall hanger

I was only going 200. So x3
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: beavis331 on October 23, 2017, 11:29:35 pm
I'm droolin! But too rich for my blood.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 24, 2017, 04:38:07 pm
Oh my few more pics I got today.

Wanted to make sure it hadnt been set on concrete floor for years.

Looks dang nice under there.


Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Eccentric on October 24, 2017, 05:09:11 pm
Man that's a nice 8500.  Like Mike, $600 is twice what I'd spend on that saw however.  Collector saw prices are going nuts.  All over the map on eBay.  I still blame it on the FB/instagram/etc crowd. 8)
Title: Re: 8500
Post by: Eccentric on October 24, 2017, 05:18:09 pm


If it smokes then the PTO side crank seal likely needs changing.  The underside of the bar oil pump is 'wet' on these, so the crank seal always has oil on the outside.  The 4900 I had passed pres/vac test and ran fine, but was smoking and fouling the muffler and plug.  It did seem to be hard to pull a prime from the tank when cold. 

Thinking that the impulse signal was a bit weak due to the leaking seal.  Changed out both seals and it ran perfectly.  I think the bar oil masked the crank seal leak.  After the seal swap it pulled a prime much better, and didn't smoke anymore once the residual bar oil in the crankcase and muffler burned off.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 24, 2017, 05:25:11 pm
Man that's a nice 8500.  Like Mike, $600 is twice what I'd spend on that saw however.  Collector saw prices are going nuts.  All over the map on eBay.  I still blame it on the FB/instagram/etc crowd. 8)

Said was friends that he had bought new and just been setting.  He is selling it for him I guess.
Title: Re: 8500
Post by: Eccentric on October 24, 2017, 05:49:27 pm
This saw family has the easiest/best muffler setup for checking the P/C.  Remove the two 5/16" head screws in the front of the muffler and the complete center baffle/spark arrestor/end cap assembly slides right out.  Muffler can is still bolted to the jug.  Sometimes they have an iron heat shield plate on the front of the muffler.  Three allen head screws hold that one.  Remove it, and the two 5/16" head screws and the center baffle setup will be revealed.
Title: poulan 8500 pics
Post by: fossil on October 24, 2017, 08:13:24 pm
I've since painted the clutch cover.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 24, 2017, 08:15:28 pm
Wish I knew more about them just so I dont fubarr for buying for next owner if I do.   

5200 5400 8500 I know and some stuff about some of the changes but never cared enough to soak it in to remember.
Title: Re: poulan 8500 pics
Post by: fossil on October 24, 2017, 08:15:45 pm
2
Title: Re: poulan 8500 pics
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 24, 2017, 08:20:34 pm
Tim do you have a clutch cover side and what the air filter looks like etc in there?    Same filter as 5200 5400?

If you dont mind will merge this with other 8500 thread later.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 24, 2017, 08:22:27 pm
found it poulan 5200 5400 8500 thread with info  https://chainsawrepair.createaforum.com/poulan/poulan-5400-5200-5200/
Title: Re: poulan 8500 pics
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 24, 2017, 08:35:40 pm
Tim I hooked up your pics in post 2. ;) Thanks
Title: Re: poulan 8500 pics
Post by: fossil on October 24, 2017, 09:06:32 pm
The air filters are different. They are as scarce as the 5200 ones as are all the top side plastic, clutch cover. The clutch drum bearing spacer and a few other I suspect. I see you got the clutch side up here in the post 2 above

5200/5400

8500 lower pic
Title: Re: poulan 8500 pics
Post by: fossil on October 24, 2017, 09:59:14 pm
Interesting that the Ontario Poulan distributor said they sold very few of the 4200  though 8500 saws here. Very few are aware of what they are and find them too heavy. They come up for sale rarely but can be had cheap when they do. I hope to see more.

One day I hope to find an orange and black 7700 and 8500
Title: Re: poulan 8500 pics
Post by: Eccentric on October 24, 2017, 10:31:37 pm
Bar studs are 3/8" rather than 5/16" (a few later 4400/4900/5400 have 3/8 studs too).  The clutch cover and bar plates are therefore unique to the 6900/7700/8500.  The 3/8" stud saws use the Oregon D096/D196/UXL mount bars.  The earlier 5/16" stud saws use D176, or the D096-UXL bars with the addition of stud spacers (like a 306/245/etc and the 3400-4000/PP375-395 series).

Air filter, top cover, clutch bearing inner race, clutch bearing, clutch drum, clutch washers, and clutch spider are all unique to the 3rd generation (6900/7700/8500) saws due to the 3rd gen crankshaft that has a larger PTO end (crank seals and bearings are the same however). 

IIRC, the left side case half is different to match the different top cover screw spacing of the 3rd gen saws.  Right side might be too.

Going by memory, the ignition module and/or coil are parts unique to the 3rd gen saws.  What's different is the lengths of the wires that connect the two components as well as the spark plug lead and cap.  With a little creativity, the 1st-2nd parts can be used on the 3rd gen saws (and vice-versa).
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 25, 2017, 07:09:53 am
Reeds and the long stroke to me explain the torque of these in the cut. 1.562 in. (39.69mm) stroke
bore    2.066 in. (52.48mm)   compared to the 505 2083 82.5cc  54mm bore and 36mm stroke    almost 3.69mm more stroke for the 8500  :P

Interesting. Says    Poulan Lime Green and Black in U.S.   Orange and Black in Canada

Tim your green black 8500 you found for $100 was from Canada?

http://www.acresinternet.com/cscc.nsf/ed1d619968136da688256af40002b8f7/871af96e8b3df32088256bfc0013440c?OpenDocument

(http://www.acresinternet.com/cscc.nsf/ed1d619968136da688256af40002b8f7/871af96e8b3df32088256bfc0013440c/Images/0.84?OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif)

Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 25, 2017, 12:28:04 pm
Piston pics look good to me.

Did say it smokes when start but he thinks it is just tuned rich.   Makes me wonder if the pto seal like Aaron said or governor in carb or just the tune.

pics

Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Eccentric on October 25, 2017, 02:07:54 pm
Yep that looks good to me too.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Eccentric on October 25, 2017, 02:26:26 pm
With the carbon inside the muffler can I'm thinking it may be eating a little bar oil.  The piston looks nice and wet, despite sitting for a long time.  That to me says that he ran decent oil and tuned it properly.  These saws like to be tuned a bit fat, especially when running longer bars. 

Some carbon on the piston skirt too.  May also point to some bar oil going through the system.  No big deal, and to be expected with the age of these saws.  Rubber parts don't live forever.  If a person really didn't want to replace the PTO side seal without knowing if it's bad.............they could mix some automotive fluorescent die into the bar oil and then run the saw for a while.  Open the muffler back up and shine a black light in there and the goo should glow if bar oil is present.  I replace the seals on my saws before running them much as a matter of course.  Cheap insurance. 

The PTO side seal is a bastard to get over the step in the crank.  Lip likes to roll under and shed the garter spring.  Last one I did I used the conical seal guide tool meant for installing seals on a Husky 285-2101 series (and 181-288 series plus 394/395).  Much better.  Poulan did sell a conical seal guide tool like this for these saws (and one for the 3400-4000 and another for the 2800-3600/etc).  I've tried ordering them without success.....
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: HolmenTree on October 25, 2017, 02:54:56 pm
Reeds and the long stroke to me explain the torque of these in the cut. 1.562 in. (39.69mm) stroke
bore    2.066 in. (52.48mm)   compared to the 505 2083 82.5cc  54mm bore and 36mm stroke    almost 3.69mm more stroke for the 8500  :P

Interesting. Says    Poulan Lime Green and Black in U.S.   Orange and Black in Canada

Tim your green black 8500 you found for $100 was from Canada?

http://www.acresinternet.com/cscc.nsf/ed1d619968136da688256af40002b8f7/871af96e8b3df32088256bfc0013440c?OpenDocument

(http://www.acresinternet.com/cscc.nsf/ed1d619968136da688256af40002b8f7/871af96e8b3df32088256bfc0013440c/Images/0.84?OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif)


Yep all the 8500s I saw in Canada were lime and black. Very strong saw, my brother still has his with a pipe he raced in the 1980's. He had the pipe built by Wolf Performance in Ontario. I believe EHP worked there at the time.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 25, 2017, 03:54:04 pm
Thanks for sharing the knowledge on stuff I have no clue about.   
Still on the fence as I dont want it for myself. Just want to make sure it gets to someone who would appreciate it I guess.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: HolmenTree on October 25, 2017, 05:20:07 pm
I don't have a pic of the brothers 8500 but now that I think about it, it was more lime green then lime yellow.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 25, 2017, 08:48:08 pm
I don't have a pic of the brothers 8500 but now that I think about it, it was more lime green then lime yellow.

They are lime green. That one is just a bad pic from acres site.

----------------------

Aaron the guy said he has started it this year why it looks so fresh oiled.

Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: farmboy on October 25, 2017, 08:49:44 pm
I really wanted one for aa long time to go with my 4200.  Since it would not be a saw we would use just going to build a Husky 2100 i've been collecting parts for.  If I didn't have so much in it I wouldn't even fool with it. 
Shep
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun on October 25, 2017, 08:53:46 pm
Someone just say the word and I will pick it up.  Not tomorrow though chasing 4 signs Thur.
Guy said he would meet me half way on the drive.  Even got the price down  a couple clams.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 27, 2017, 11:21:59 am
Looks like I am meeting the owner tonight to pick up the 8500. 

Saw has been paid for SOLD.

Will get some pics after I pick it up and cut with it some.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 27, 2017, 07:10:38 pm
Here she is  8). Love the small dawg compared to the big ones I seen on others.



Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 27, 2017, 08:32:26 pm
Going by Poulan 8500 IPL I have been looking at the smaller dawg was the optional dawg over having the big dawg. WAG from looking http://www.barrettsmallengine.com/partslist/poulan8500chainsaw.pdf
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Termitebuffet on October 27, 2017, 09:23:23 pm
Very nice

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: 3000 FPS on October 27, 2017, 10:39:23 pm
Yep looks like a nice saw.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Eccentric on October 28, 2017, 05:12:51 am
The smaller dawg set was standard on the first and 2nd gen saws, with the big set being optional.  They reversed that for the third gen saws.  I've swapped my saws out to the big dawgs, as they keep the saw from nosing over when bars longer than 28" are mounted.  Somewhat of a kickstand.  The small set works great with the half wrap handlebar and 28" and shorter bars.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Eccentric on October 28, 2017, 05:13:43 am
Photobucket still has most of my pics held hostage.  Otherwise I'd post some more of my 8500.....
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun on October 28, 2017, 08:25:09 am
The smaller dawg set was standard on the first and 2nd gen saws, with the big set being optional.  They reversed that for the third gen saws.  I've swapped my saws out to the big dawgs, as they keep the saw from nosing over when bars longer than 28" are mounted.  Somewhat of a kickstand.  The small set works great with the half wrap handlebar and 28" and shorter bars.

Thank you for that explanation Mr Guru ;). I wondered why the small dawg spur was the option on it.   

Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun on October 28, 2017, 08:26:38 am
Photobucket still has most of my pics held hostage.  Otherwise I'd post some more of my 8500.....

You can download your pics to your HD.  is to the right of your single pic on PB when you look at it. I been doing it on a as needed basis. ;)
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 28, 2017, 02:38:52 pm
Test cut with my RA mix and RS chain in the dry ash log. 

Dumped and airing out now so I can air it off and get ready to pack up. 
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: 3000 FPS on October 28, 2017, 10:07:56 pm
Test cut with my RA mix and RS chain in the dry ash log. 

Dumped and airing out now so I can air it off and get ready to pack up. 

That is pretty cool Kevin.  Not everyone would find a saw like this one and then offer it out there for what it costs from the seller.   
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 29, 2017, 03:37:43 pm
All packed up today. Will go out Mon UPS. Had to use a bigger box do to the length. To tight in my normal shipping boxes.  :-X
I like room to pad all the way around them.  Box ended up with 22"x22" by 14" deep

add more. This saw starts so easy.  When I picked up. 1st pull poped and pushed in choke quicly and kept it running.

Yesterday 2 pulls running.

Today to run dry 2-3 and ran idleing dry.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on October 30, 2017, 05:38:29 pm
BYE  BYE  8500   

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/fe/38/91/fe38910a9d6e1120f2ed28065360e9cc.jpg)
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: farmboy on October 30, 2017, 09:38:17 pm
Glad it's gone I can quit thinking I should have sprung.
Shep
Title: Poulam 8500 85cc
Post by: HolmenTree on November 05, 2017, 10:40:34 pm
Kevin, that 8500 you just let go had some great memorabilia involved with it.
7 time Hayward World champ Ron Hartill and his son Dale had great success with it in the 1980's.
Here's a good pic of them in the late 1980's.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on November 06, 2017, 06:33:29 am
Very cool pic Willard.
Title: Re: Poulan 8500
Post by: Cut4fun . on November 15, 2018, 06:20:30 pm
Guy on the CRG just bought this running 160psi poulan 8500 bowsaw for $120