Author Topic: E15 ANOTHER FUEL FIGHT  (Read 336 times)

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Offline 660magnum

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E15 ANOTHER FUEL FIGHT
« on: August 24, 2013, 09:30:09 pm »
 Another fuel fight... This was written by a guy (a Mr Horning) in the SW USA that works on small engines. Where he lives, (sometimes in Northern Mexico) he has a lot of trouble with the fuel going bad . . .

    There are some that claim that ethanol in the fuel does no harm in our small two stroke engines, and those that claim that it certainly does. Personally, I think for people that use their equipment regularly, like once a week, that ethanol laced gasoline probably does no damage. This is assuming that the fuel system has up to date components of course. But I think for engines and fuel systems that sit for long periods of time, the ethanol does result in collateral if not direct damage/problems. The only other thing I can add is that I used to be a Rotax Authorized Service Center. (Rotax engines are by far the most commonly used engines in Ultralight airplanes.) Rotax was stern in their warnings that gasoline with ethanol was NOT to be used in their two stroke engines.

    Here is an interesting paragraph posted by Popular Mechanics relating to the problem:

    Will this damage my lawnmower, boat, jet ski, snowmobile, or four-wheeler?

    It sure will if you don't pay attention. Generally, small two stroke engines are not designed to deal with the more corrosive E15 blend. And, as we mentioned in 2010, ethanol forms a brown goo when left in a fuel tank too long, which can clog fuel-system components. Two-stroke engines run hotter with an ethanol blend, which accelerates the potential damage. And ethanol can wreak havoc on fiberglass fuel tanks in older boats. Groups like the National Marine Manufacturers Association and Outdoor Power Equipment Institute have issued strong warnings to consumers to pay attention to their fuels or risk severe engine damage. Use a fuel stabilizer if the engine will sit for more than a few weeks without use; this will reduce the ethanol–water separation and potential gumming issues. Be careful to avoid using E15 in uncertified engines like these, at least until the subject is studied more thoroughly, and the engineering catches up to the fuel.


    http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/four-things-to-know-about-e15-15096134

I do have small engines that sit unused for long periods of times. I used to have a lot of problems with stiffening of fuel lines and more troublesome, stiff carb diaphragms. So now I use a "Storage Fuel" which consists of Coleman Camp fuel mixed 20 to 1 with Pennzoil for Air Cooled Engines and a dash of Sta-Bil for good measure. I remove the running fuel when done sawing, put half a tank of the "Storage Fuel" in, and run the engine long enough to be sure the fuel has gotten all through the carb and engine. I then choke the engine to kill it, and store it with the "Storage Fuel" in the tank. I do not recommend running Coleman fuel for work whatsoever.

Anyway, the "Storage Fuel" has solved virtually all my fuel system problems and I use it religiously.

Relative to the above post in the paragraph from Popular Mechanics; one clarification. Ethanol in the fuel will NOT make an engine run hotter, IF the mixture is richened to compensate for the ethanol. Ethanol needs a much richer mixture than pure gasoline. So if you add ethanol to the gas, and do not then richen the mixture, it will run hotter because the fuel mixture has effectively been leaned out due to the addition of the ethanol. Actually, with a proper fuel mixture, an engine running with a percentage of ethanol added should in fact run slightly cooler.
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Offline Al Smith

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Re: ANOTHER FUEL FIGHT
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2013, 09:13:33 pm »
To a point some of that makes sense .For example any alcohol fuel requires 40 percent more fuel than straight gasoline to get the same power .Alky vaporizes much faster than gasoline .Going from a greater concentration to a lesser as would be the case of fuel through a carb would have the same effect  as refridgeration with freon vaporizing .It would get cooler to some degree than straight gasoline .However it would take more of same to get the same power hench a richer mixture .Plays the dickens with the carb and seals though which kinda sucks .

Offline Cut4fun

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Re: E15 ANOTHER FUEL FIGHT
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2014, 09:48:05 am »
copy pasted below

Look Before You Pump Gasoline for Outdoor Power Equipment

When you pull up to a gasoline filling station, you may start to see some changes. The gas you put in your car may no longer be safe for small engines, UTVs and outdoor power equipment.

To learn more: http://opei.org/ethanolwarning/

http://youtu.be/pz34vhT2_Nc
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Offline Cut4fun

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Re: E15 ANOTHER FUEL FIGHT
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2014, 09:52:57 am »
other link copy pasted some from it.

http://opei.org/ethanolwarning/   

LOOK BEFORE YOU PUMP

When you pull up to a gasoline filling station, you may start to see some changes. The gas you put in your car may no longer be safe for small engines, UTVs and outdoor power equipment.
The equipment affected include: mowers, garden tractors, chain saws, boats, snow throwers, trimmers, UTVs, power washers, blowers, chippers, grinders, generators, jaws of life, concrete saws and other compact construction equipment, as well as small engine applications such as water pumps and irrigation systems, and other additional small engines.
To learn more, click on the appropriate section below.

PRICE is No Longer the Best Way to Select Gasoline

Most gasoline now contains 10 percent ethanol (E10). But, you may see higher ethanol blended gas available for sale – such as 15, 30, 50 or 85 percent ethanol gas – at a gasoline filling station.

These higher ethanol blends may even be cheaper than E10, and you might be tempted to buy the higher ethanol content gasoline because of its lower cost. But, price is no longer the way to choose your gasoline safely. You have to choose the right fuel for the right application.

Higher ethanol blends (above 10% ethanol) are not meant for outdoor power equipment such as mowers, garden tractors, chain saws, boats, snow throwers, trimmers, UTVs, power washers, blowers, chippers, grinders, generators, jaws of life, concrete saws and other compact construction equipment, as well as small engine applications such as water pumps and irrigation systems.

Are higher ethanol blends really that harmful to outdoor power equipment?

Yes. You might be tempted to use a higher ethanol blended fuel since it may be less expensive. However, greater than 10 percent ethanol in outdoor power equipment can corrode metals and rubber and cause engines to break down more quickly. Most outdoor power equipment was not built, designed or warranted to run on fuel greater than E10, and using higher ethanol blends can damage or destroy it. In fact, using any fuel that contains more than 10 percent ethanol is illegal to use in outdoor power equipment.

Also, the higher the ethanol blend, the lower the fuel economy. Ethanol contains 33 percent less energy per gallon than gasoline, so engines fueled with higher ethanol blended gas will attain fewer miles per gallon than those running on conventional gasoline (E10). This means you must fill your gas tank more frequently when using higher ethanol blended fuel.
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Offline 660magnum

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Re: E15 ANOTHER FUEL FIGHT
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2014, 11:04:24 am »
I get a sneaking suspicion that the local fuel around me has varying amounts of Ethanol, even from the same pump, from week to week?

E10 might be 5% and it may be 25% locally even though it says E10 on the pump?
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Offline KilliansRedLeo

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Re: E15 ANOTHER FUEL FIGHT
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2014, 11:32:51 am »
I read someplace that the ethanol we get does not come blended from the refineries it is most often blended by the distributors. And there are no QA standards that I know of that the distributors must follow.
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Offline Cut4fun .

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Re: E15 ANOTHER FUEL FIGHT
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2014, 12:52:08 pm »
Tim this happen in 2012  To much Ethanol warning  http://chainsawrepair.createaforum.com/war-room/to-much-ethanol-warning/msg10409/#msg10409


Marathon and Speedway issue small-engine fuel warning for gasoline


Advisory from Marathon Petroleum, essentially stating that consumers should avoid using their gas for anything with a small engine. At least for awhile.

Apparently, the Findlay, Ohio-based petroleum refiner got too much ethanol in its gasoline formula, which might cause implement such as mowers and leaf blowers to run hotter than they’re designed to handle.

Marathon Petroleum – Small Engine Fuel Advisory

 Marathon Petroleum has identified a product quality situation at one of its terminals resulting in gasoline containing more than 10 percent ethanol in the counties surrounding the greater Louisville area, excluding Jefferson county. Adjacent counties in southern Indiana have also been impacted. Fuel with excess ethanol has the potential to cause small engines such as chainsaws, leaf blowers, generators, lawn mowers, snow blowers, etc., to run faster and hotter than normal, which may result in safety-related issues.

This fuel should not cause drivability or safety issues with respect to automobiles.

If you purchased gasoline since March 3 from Marathon Brand or Speedway locations Marathon Petroleum recommends that you do not operate small engines containing this fuel.

Marathon Petroleum is continuing to identify other retail locations in the impacted areas that may have been supplied with this gasoline and will provide additional information as soon as it becomes available. If you have a concern regarding your gasoline, please contact the retailer to determine if it was supplied by Marathon Petroleum.
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Offline 660magnum

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Re: E15 ANOTHER FUEL FIGHT
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2014, 02:44:18 pm »
Marathon is one of the biggest fuel suppliers in this area of North Central Ohio.

No matter what station you go to around here, it is likely supplied by Marathon.

They have refineries in Findley, Ohio, Canton, Ohio, & Catletsburg (Ashland) Ky on the Ohio river.
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Offline Eccentric

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Re: E15 ANOTHER FUEL FIGHT
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2014, 03:23:59 am »
I get a sneaking suspicion that the local fuel around me has varying amounts of Ethanol, even from the same pump, from week to week?

E10 might be 5% and it may be 25% locally even though it says E10 on the pump?
I read someplace that the ethanol we get does not come blended from the refineries it is most often blended by the distributors. And there are no QA standards that I know of that the distributors must follow.

You fellows are right on.  We've been having that problem (inconsistent eth levels) in gasoline here (in Ca) since the mid 1990's when eth gas was foisted on us as a replacement for MTBE (which had been foisted on us previously).  I was working in an OPE shop at that time.  We would have rashes of roached  new equipment coming in (mostly string trimmers).  We started testing the gas from the fuel tanks for eth content.  Some of it was well over 20%.  Ethanol was getting added to the fuel at multiple points along its journey from the refineries to the pumps.   Bad deal.....
-Aaron

For older saws:
Tune the H side so that it 4-strokes (burbles) at WOT unloaded and just cleans up when under load.
When you lift cutting load, the saw should immediately revert to 4-stroking.  Fine tune the transition point for the wood you're cutting.

Offline KilliansRedLeo

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Re: E15 ANOTHER FUEL FIGHT
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2014, 01:41:29 pm »
Well Eccentric, since it is going on in Canada also, it must be some sort of multi government conspiracy foisted on us all and led by the Obama administration. Only they could have a working public health system across the border and be so omnipotent as to ignore it.

“We have to pass the (health care) bill so you can find out what is in it”!
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"When the people fear the government...you have tyranny....When the government fears the people....you have liberty"

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