Chainsaw Repair
Husqvarna - Stihl - Poulan - Jonsered - Dolmar chainsaws and more => Stihl => Topic started by: Cut4fun . on July 17, 2013, 04:03:12 pm
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Just had what I think is a stihl 046 with stihl ms460 tank etc on it dropped off for a rebuild. Ex tree service saw. Pics as seen through pm's.
I tell you that new HD2 filter falls apart easily it looks like.
http://www.comwavz.com/~winland/MS460/MS460parts1.jpg[/img]
(http://www.comwavz.com/~winland/MS460/MS460parts2.jpg)
http://www.comwavz.com/~winland/MS460/MS460parts3.jpg[/img]
http://www.comwavz.com/~winland/MS460/MS460parts4.jpg[/img]
http://www.comwavz.com/~winland/MS460/MS460parts5.jpg[/img]
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Found what I believe killed this saw. Dumped fuel from tank and went to look at fuel filter and line. Hmmmmm no fuel filter inside tank anywhere. So I pull the carb off knowing I am going to find it full of wood fines etc. Yep the inlet screen was jam packed along with other carb orifices. Which in my mind created lean condition and stuck the rings just that little bit shown in pic about 1/4" wide score area. I'll get better pics later on bench. Oh and that POS fallen apart stihl HD2 air filter couldnt have helped matters.
The piston still has witness lines, cylinder just a hair of transfer that will clean up, crank bearings looked and feel good. De-comp button bent to where it is either stuck in or out using force.
Oh plus the owner has opted for that DP muffler set up I used on the 440. This 046 had the back half that needs the cage cut out and plain cover.
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Going by what the owner of this saw told me. 1 dealer had it for 2 weeks and 1 a month and looks like I got more done and found out in a hour then both combined. Without a $700 estimate to fix like the others. :o ::) :o Thats just so wrong in so many ways IMO. ;)
[img width=700 height=525]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/034036/046teardown002_zps5cb863b9.jpg
[URL=http://s59.photobucket.com/user/doemaster789/media/034036/046teardown001_zpsfc5c6e77.jpg.html][img width=700 height=525]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/034036/046teardown001_zpsfc5c6e77.jpg
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[URL=http://s59.photobucket.com/user/doemaster789/media/034036/046teardown004_zps77e564a6.jpg.html][img width=700 height=525]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/034036/046teardown004_zps77e564a6.jpg
[URL=http://s59.photobucket.com/user/doemaster789/media/034036/046teardown006_zpsd86ee998.jpg.html][img width=700 height=525]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/034036/046teardown006_zpsd86ee998.jpg
[URL=http://s59.photobucket.com/user/doemaster789/media/034036/046teardown005_zpsd308817a.jpg.html][img width=700 height=525]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/034036/046teardown005_zpsd308817a.jpg
[URL=http://s59.photobucket.com/user/doemaster789/media/034036/046teardown008_zpsc293dabf.jpg.html][img width=700 height=525]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/034036/046teardown008_zpsc293dabf.jpg
[URL=http://s59.photobucket.com/user/doemaster789/media/034036/046teardown007_zpsd7da069f.jpg.html][img width=700 height=525]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/034036/046teardown007_zpsd7da069f.jpg
[URL=http://s59.photobucket.com/user/doemaster789/media/034036/046teardown009_zps3bad45dd.jpg.html][img width=700 height=525]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/034036/046teardown009_zps3bad45dd.jpg
(http://s59.photobucket.com/user/doemaster789/media/034036/046teardown002_zps5cb863b9.jpg.html)
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From the picture that piston doesn't look that bad . I've saved them a lot worse than that .
Lay the sand paper to it ,it might clean up .
It looks like it got scorched on the outlet side which makes sense if it was gas starved .Might not have done anything if the cage had been cut out except run lousey .
From the pic the intake side doesn't appear bad so it must not have eaten a bunch of dust
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From the picture that piston doesn't look that bad . I've saved them a lot worse than that .
Yep that piston will be a piece of cake to clean up IMO2. So will the cylinder. The ring groove was marred closed some but I have fixed way way worse in the past.
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Cylinder and piston is ready for the new rings and to put this puppy back together. Finished up going through other side of carb and cleaning the tank vent up too.
I bet I know why no filter was on new tank on this 046 that helped kill it. The new 440 tank I got came with line installed and no filter. They must have assumed it had filter and just installed tank.
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Until you mentioned that fact I had over looked the flippy on the fuel tank from the picture.
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looks like they been soaking that filter in gas to clean it ,loosened up the glue ?
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looks like they been soaking that filter in gas to clean it ,loosened up the glue ?
No clue on that. But Brad aka blsnellling said he is seeing the new HD2 coming unglued down his way too.
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Good thing I had my 16" 3/8 bar left from my 066 to make some test cuts today (about 20 mins worth). ;D
[img width=700 height=525]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/MS660066/rebuilt046001_zpsba4bfc11.jpg
[URL=http://s59.photobucket.com/user/doemaster789/media/MS660066/rebuilt046004_zps73a7a7f1.jpg.html][img width=700 height=525]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/MS660066/rebuilt046004_zps73a7a7f1.jpg
[URL=http://s59.photobucket.com/user/doemaster789/media/MS660066/rebuilt046003_zps043a400b.jpg.html][img width=700 height=525]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/MS660066/rebuilt046003_zps043a400b.jpg
[URL=http://s59.photobucket.com/user/doemaster789/media/MS660066/rebuilt046002_zpseff836c5.jpg.html][img width=700 height=525]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/MS660066/rebuilt046002_zpseff836c5.jpg
[URL=http://s59.photobucket.com/user/doemaster789/media/MS660066/rebuilt046005_zps3e6b8fd8.jpg.html][img width=700 height=525]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/MS660066/rebuilt046005_zps3e6b8fd8.jpg
(http://s59.photobucket.com/user/doemaster789/media/MS660066/rebuilt046001_zpsba4bfc11.jpg.html)
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Just comparing specs. Hmmmmmmmmmm Both new rebuilds with new rings too.
stihl 046 76.5cc (4.67 cu.in) Bore: 52 mm (2.05 in
poulan 475 76.5cc 52mm bore
Stihl 046 owners manual http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/instructionmanuals/046_Manual.pdf
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Noticed this 046 has a D combustion chamber. All 046 460 like that?
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No they are not. I wondered the same thing, but I have two here now and the 046 has the d shaped combustion chamber and the 460 has a round one. Not sure if all 046's are D and all 460's are round but saying from what i have.
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TL said the D shaped CC 046 is the better runners he thought.
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Just based off 044 cylinders, i always heard the D shaped ones ran better, so I was gonna use the D shaped one myself. This just makes mt mind up.
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Looking at weight pics to compare too. This look about right. 046 14lbs 12.4oz PHO
(http://www.pbase.com/wyk/image/137564856/original.jpg)
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That's a good looking saw.
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That's a good looking saw.
I just found that one on the net on a image search. No clue who's.
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Can someone confirm my thinking. Is a 066 660 chain catcher the same as 046 460? I havent dug into IPL's yet.
Realize that is another part this saw was missing. Should have caught it when looking for a lower dawg bolt replacement.
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Can someone confirm my thinking. Is a 066 660 chain catcher the same as 046 460? I havent dug into IPL's yet.
Realize that is another part this saw was missing. Should have caught it when looking for a lower dawg bolt replacement.
Must be. My last one on hand from a 066 660. Had to use another different bolt that was longer then the last one I found being the beginning threads are stripped out of the case.
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digging 1122 656 7700 11226567700
Fits the following models:
Stihl 044, 046, 064, 066, MS 440, MS 441, MS 460, MS 640, MS 650, MS 660
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Noticed this 046 has a D combustion chamber. All 046 460 like that?
Founds some good info posted by Wiggs in KY on 046 460 cylinders.
((((((((There are several different 046/460 cylinders. The earliest 046's, they had the d-shape chamber, larger transfer ducts and larger upper transfers, coupled with more transfer duration. The last one i put a wheel on, Going off memory here, was around 100/115/75. Very little blowdown. Stock for stock, they will walk the dog over the late model 460 jugs. Not even a contest....
Then they shrunk the upper transfers and tunnels and gave it more blowdown. Consiquently, the exhaust port got smaller when that happened. Finally they ditched the D-shape chamber, gave it even more blowdown, and a pencil sized exhaust port opening. ))))))
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I am working on a MS460 that is for me and not for flipping.
The piston and rings are toast from scoring but I believe the cylinder is salvageable.
So I have been looking on line and can see there is all kinds of ways to go on this thing.
I can get a meteor piston with caber rings and use the original cylinder.
I can get any combination of cylinder and piston and rings by names I am not familiar with.
I can also see that there is 54mm I believe cylinder and piston combo by names I am not familiar with.
So what have some of you guys used with success and had run good afterwards.
If I use the stock cylinder I will open the ports some and shape the upper transfers toward the intake.
I will also measure the squish and see where it is and see if I can lower it some.
Thanks for any advice guys.
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The stock oem pistons are pretty cheap. That would be the route I would go if weather I was keeping it or flippin it. I have heard the meteor p and c are decent.
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The stock oem pistons are pretty cheap. That would be the route I would go if weather I was keeping it or flippin it. I have heard the meteor p and c are decent.
I was looking at the meteor setup and I may go that route. I still have to clean up the stock cylinder to use it. Let us see if there are any other opinions.
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Have you looked around for a good used piston and cylinder. Got a couple from chainsawr in the past and had very good luck with them.
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Have you looked around for a good used piston and cylinder. Got a couple from chainsawr in the past and had very good luck with them.
I have not looked over there yet. Thanks I will give them a shot. Another good option.
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Oem piston and cylinder if possible. Could grab a Wiseco race piston for it.
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Oem piston and cylinder if possible. Could grab a Wiseco race piston for it.
Thanks Mike. I think I will go OEM it seems to have the best performance and of course we know the reliability is good.
Got to find my acid to clean up the cylinder. I have not used any since I moved and do not know where the heck it is.
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May have a usable cylinder here if that one is wasted.
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May have a usable cylinder here if that one is wasted.
Ok but I think I can get this one to clean up pretty good. The piston is really trashed though and easy enough to find. I will keep you in mind though Adam thanks.
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New OEM was around $50 for piston kit. That way you can compare cost to Meteor kit. Check with Scott Kunz username here aka tree monkey on other sites. Also Check CCC Dave as he has been reselling stihl oem parts on ebay.
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I think Scott Kunz had a heart attack last week, believe he's recovering ok...
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I think Scott Kunz had a heart attack last week, believe he's recovering ok...
I read that too. He said he stopped taking his blood thinner or something like that and one side got blocked up. Said he was doing fine now and back on the meds.
We got to take our meds as we get older. Our body's aint young anymore.
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Well I found my muriatic acid today and I have a Oem piston on order. As soon as I get time and some warm weather I will start cleaning up the cylinder.
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Good to hear that Kevin.
Roger, share some pics of the acid clean up, I tried it years ago with so so results, would like to see how yours works...
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I think Scott Kunz had a heart attack last week, believe he's recovering ok...
I read that too. He said he stopped taking his blood thinner or something like that and one side got blocked up. Said he was doing fine now and back on the meds.
We got to take our meds as we get older. Our body's aint young anymore.
They got a go fund me account going for him as well. Need to link it over here somewhere.
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Good to hear that Kevin.
Roger, share some pics of the acid clean up, I tried it years ago with so so results, would like to see how yours works...
Will do.
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I worked on the cylinder for about 45 minutes today. The cylinder is too far gone and will look for something else. Right above the exhaust port the plating is pitted real bad. That is one thing I like about the acid is it will not hide any bad spots but expose them. There is also some vertical grooves that I do not think will come out. But once I saw the pitting I stopped doing any more work or else that cylinder would look like brand new.
I messed up on my before pic and thought I had a good one. The others turned out ok though.
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Roger,
I'll see if I have any good 460 cylinders and get back to you...
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Roger,
I'll see if I have any good 460 cylinders and get back to you...
Ok no worrys.
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Well I ended up buying a Hyway cylinder and a meteor Piston with caber rings. I checked the squish without a base gasket and found it at .020".
The piston looked pretty nice but the cylinder porting is just so so. The nikasil plating looked good on the cylinder. I tried to match the ports to the OEM cylinder I have here. This is when I wished I had a angle head for the foredom. The upper transfer ports were the only ones I did not touch because I really do not have the tooling for messing with them. I did make sure I matched the rubber intake boot to the cylinder intake port and the same for the exhaust.
They were a lot smaller then the OEM cylinder.
I ran the saw today and I have to say it does run good and for a less expensive way to go I do not have any complaints right now. The saw is running very good right now and seems to have plenty of torque in the cut. Time will tell.
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Glad you got it going! Did the Hyway come with its own pistonnclearanc well?
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Glad you got it going! Did the Hyway come with its own pistonnclearanc well?
When I bought the Cylinder and piston I got it from the guy in Greece and it was sold as a package. I did not modify any part of the piston or cylinder to get .020" squish with the elimination of the base gasket. The top of the cylinder was nice and flat looking with no small ridge on the most outer part of the squish band like a I see on some cylinders. I checked the squish with a piece of solder down the spark plug hole on both sides where the wrist pin is located. I actually liked the way the squish band looked on the Hyway cylinder. If I get a chance later I will put a tach on the saw and see where it is revving to at WOT.
I am not sure by what you mean with piston clearance well.
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Glad you got it going! Did the Hyway come with its own pistonnclearanc well?
When I bought the Cylinder and piston I got it from the guy in Greece and it was sold as a package. I did not modify any part of the piston or cylinder to get .020" squish with the elimination of the base gasket. The top of the cylinder was nice and flat looking with no small ridge on the most outer part of the squish band like a I see on some cylinders. I checked the squish with a piece of solder down the spark plug hole on both sides where the wrist pin is located. I actually liked the way the squish band looked on the Hyway cylinder. If I get a chance later I will put a tach on the saw and see where it is revving to at WOT.
I am not sure by what you mean with piston clearance well.
I think he is asking about the piston clearance inside the the cylinder 360 degree around.
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Glad you got it going! Did the Hyway come with its own pistonnclearanc well?
When I bought the Cylinder and piston I got it from the guy in Greece and it was sold as a package. I did not modify any part of the piston or cylinder to get .020" squish with the elimination of the base gasket. The top of the cylinder was nice and flat looking with no small ridge on the most outer part of the squish band like a I see on some cylinders. I checked the squish with a piece of solder down the spark plug hole on both sides where the wrist pin is located. I actually liked the way the squish band looked on the Hyway cylinder. If I get a chance later I will put a tach on the saw and see where it is revving to at WOT.
I am not sure by what you mean with piston clearance well.
I think he is asking about the piston clearance inside the the cylinder 360 degree around.
I never checked that. So you mean like skirt clearance.
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sorry guys, didn't catch the typo, was curious if the jug came with a piston. thanks Adam
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I bought the cylinder and piston as a package deal. The cylinder was a Hyway the piston was a Meteor the rings Caber.
I measured the ring gap and it looked good. I also dry fit the piston in the cylinder before installing it and it seemed a nice fit.
The only other measurement I took was the squish. I did not advance the timing on this saw like I do on most of the saws I mess with.
I should get the tach out and see how it is doing. Also do a compression test on it. The compression feels good when starting it.
I can see in the future if I want to open up the upper transfer ports that I should get an angle head for my flex shaft.
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460 doesn't mind a good advance.
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460 doesn't mind a good advance.
Ok Mike. Did you get my PM.
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Not on here.
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Ok I will try it again Mike.
So today I put a tach on the saw and checked the compression. You never know until you actually check them
So the tach at WOT and with a bar chain is at 14,000 to 14,200 rpms. But the compression is only at 135 psi. The compression is much lower
than I thought it should be even for it not being broke in and at 6000ft above sea level. It does not really matter since it is just for cutting up some fire wood and it will do that. It could be I got a little to free with the grinder.
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Corrected for altitude that's about 158 for compression.
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Corrected for altitude that's about 158 for compression.
That is true with the bigger cc saws you lose a lot of compression up high where I am.
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Raising the exhaust port will reduce the compression a little. But altitude has a big effect.
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Raising the exhaust port will reduce the compression a little. But altitude has a big effect.
Hey Jim how are you.
Yea I did raise it a little but I don't think I raised it that much. It could be the Hyway cylinder already had a high exhaust port. Since I did not check it with a degree wheel I really do not know. But I have to be honest the saw still feels pretty strong to me.
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Yes, the Hyway cylinder exhaust ports are already about as high as you dare go. AFAIK the higher ports are like a long duration cam in four stroke and reduce your over all volumetric change. Therefore the compression is reduced.
To minimize the squish, and also to widen the squish band, and/or even pop-up the piston overcomes any compression loss due to increased timing.
Naturally you already knew all this and I'm just running off at the jaw being a troll.
The typical big problem I've seen on aftermarket cylinders is the shape of the top of the exhaust port (The Arc) and the lack of beveling on the top of both the intake and exhaust ports tends to score the top corner of the piston crown and the wear the edge from the top of the ring.
Hyway has been better at this than the other brands.
A ring with a rounded top edge at any of the ports will still give decent static compression but the power will be diminished.
Kevin had a 272 with a AM cylinder come in with 150 pounds of compression but ran like it was four stroking until it was too lean to run. The ring top was round at the transfers. A new ring and all was forgiven.
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Well I guess that explains the lack of compression.
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Usually a few degrees isn't that much difference.
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Well I ordered a plug for the decompression valve and blocked it off. I took another compression reading and it is up to 150 psi now.
Could be the ring has started to seat in some and with a plug in the decompression valve. Could be one or the other or a combination of both.
What I am seeing now is more like what I would expect from it. I still think it should be even higher and could get better as the ring seats more.
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150 is almost 180. That's pretty close to what it should be.
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150 is almost 180. That's pretty close to what it should be.
Great thanks Mike.
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150 is almost 180. That's pretty close to what it should be.
Great thanks Mike.
Most oem are in the 165-170 range at 1k' or less.
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Put a DP muffler cover set up on a 046 guy that said his dad bought new in 1994. He got it with bad piston not running and redid it.
Also put a HD2 air filter, switched to KL200 40:1 and tuned with a 16" in the ash log. Fun fun let'er rip potato chip. 8)
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Put a DP muffler cover set up on a 046 guy that said his dad bought new in 1994. He got it with bad piston not running and redid it.
Also put a HD2 air filter, switched to KL200 40:1 and tuned with a 16" in the ash log. Fun fun let'er rip potato chip. 8)
Yep I still have that one I got from Adam here. Nice running saw.
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So the MS 460 that I bought from AClarke about 5 years ago started running funny on me. I started to take it apart and found the cylinder was loose. So I tightened it back up and it seem to be alright and then started running funny again. So I replaced the crank seals and still running funny. So yesterday I pulled the cylinder off and removed the base gasket. Squish was at .022". This was a woods ported saw and it gave me a chance to check out the porting.
I will say someone did some nice work it. Nothing fancy but some nice woods porting. I like what I saw. Put it back together yesterday and ran it today. The base gasket must of had a leak because all back to normal, but I feel the compression difference now. Nice work Adam even if it is 5 years later.
Thanks.
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Just saving some info shared by Wiggs in KY.
Stihl 046 D combustion chamber cylinder
Merged 460 thread and 046 thread
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That 046 D cylinder made it run like they should. Stronger with 24" buried then my 444 now.
If I hadnt had owned both the 444 and 466 I wouldnt even known there was something lacking in the 466's.
Some horrible looking ports in the FT 466 cylinder. Surprised they run as good as they do.