Chainsaw Repair

Husqvarna - Stihl - Poulan - Jonsered - Dolmar chainsaws and more => Husqvarna => Topic started by: lwalper on September 28, 2013, 10:21:47 pm

Title: Can't split the case
Post by: lwalper on September 28, 2013, 10:21:47 pm
I'm working on a Husky 365 (1998 model). The saw seized solid so I took the top end off thinking the piston was seized in the jug and would be an easy fix. Not so. The rod bearing seems to be completely shot so am needing to split the case and go through the bottom end as well.

That's the problem. I've got all the screws out and have slipped a knife in the gasket material all the way around the case. The case halves are loose and will come about the distance of the gasket (or just a bit farther) apart, but no more than that. how do I get the case apart? Is there something else holding the thing together? -- or are the crank bearings pressed onto the crank and case requiring a bit more heave-ho? I just don't want to break the case prying on it. ???
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: 660magnum on September 28, 2013, 10:30:09 pm
The main bearings are a interference fit on both the crank and within the bearing pockets of the case.

The factory puller looks like a C-clamp that pushes on the end of the crank and pulls on the inside of the case at the bearing.

Warming up (with a hot air gun) the side of the case (around the bearing) you are working on helps to get the case half off
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: lwalper on September 28, 2013, 10:37:13 pm
WOW! That was quick. I've got a puller and will try a little heat too. Thanks!!
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: KilliansRedLeo on September 29, 2013, 10:47:58 am
There is also a tool that will help you pull the crank into the bearings after you have put the new bearings in the case. Husqvarna part number 502 50 30-15. This tool makes it very easy to get the crank into the bearings, eliminates any side thrust on the bearings and can be used to align the crank properly in the case. There are a couple of other tools that make the seals very easy to install.

Be VERY CAREFUL when disassembling the case especially on the oil pump/clutch side! Under the oil pomp there is a large flat washer that keeps the drive wheel from eating up the seal. There is a large bushing that the oil pump drive wheel rides on. Under that there is an o-ring (a very fine and fragile one) Do not loose or damage it. It is part 503 26 30-19 in the attached file.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: lwalper on September 29, 2013, 11:15:25 am
Thanks, I'll bear those tips in mind.

The case is split, crank bearings out (one of them ran like sand), gasket surface cleaned. Now, to the crank--how to get it apart. The rod bearings are shot!

And, in the rebuild should I go with the OEM piston/cylinder or try the big-bore 52mm set? I've seen some folks report that the 1998 model case will not tolerate the HP/torque increase of the larger set, but need the 1999 "special" and newer models for that.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: 660magnum on September 29, 2013, 12:08:01 pm
You don't take the crank apart and replace the the rod bearings.

You get another good or a new crankshaft/rod assembly
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: 660magnum on September 29, 2013, 12:09:35 pm
The weak part of the early crankcase is around the bar studs. It has nothing to do with more power
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: KilliansRedLeo on September 29, 2013, 12:12:24 pm
The crank will be problematic, as it takes a crankshaft shop to do the work properly, and it will be expensive! Probably more than a new OEM crank and rod will cost you. You can buy the crank OEM for 214$ from parts tree. There are different part numbers for the cranks in 365/372 saws but they are all the same. Sometimes you can find an OEM crank used on eBay or you might be able to get a used crank from a builder like myself.

I have a bunch of them right now for around 100$ plus ship if you are interested.

I have put BB kits on lots of 365 bottom ends without problem. The hot setup for a BB kit is use a 52mm Stihl piston instead of the one supplied with the kit. It is 1.5mm taller than the BB piston and will give much higher compression. You have to do a little metal removal from the inside shoulders of the pin boss but no big deal. You can then adjust squish by using copper shim stock for a gasket.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: KilliansRedLeo on September 29, 2013, 12:20:25 pm
OBTW, 660MAGNUM is correct on the case weakness being in the bar mount area, same goes for the early 362 saws.  ;D

I use the Hyway BB kits when I do them from hlsproparts, and the Meteor version of the Sthil piston. You don't have to use copper for a gasket. You can buy gasket material in many different thicknesses from NAPA auto parts, you should be looking for a squish between .018 and .022!
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: Cut4fun . on September 29, 2013, 12:33:10 pm
You can get a good used crank out of 362xp 365 371 372 jonsered 2063 2065 2171 to use for 50 or under most times.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: Cut4fun . on September 29, 2013, 12:34:50 pm
crank and crankcase $75.  Member here too.  http://www.sawagain.com/husqvarna-365-371-xp-372-xp-crankcase-oem/
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: 660magnum on September 29, 2013, 12:35:45 pm
The 52mm Meteor piston to use is for a Stihl 064
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: KilliansRedLeo on September 29, 2013, 12:46:35 pm
Sorry 660 I forgot to add the model number and I can do a good used crank for $50 plus ship.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: KilliansRedLeo on September 29, 2013, 12:52:00 pm
The link Cut4Fun posted is a very good deal, if you buy it and don't want the case I will buy it from you.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: Cut4fun . on September 29, 2013, 12:54:28 pm
Sorry 660 I forgot to add the model number and I can do a good used crank for $50 plus ship.

Hopefully he takes you up on this. Being you can check the big end bearing for him before sale.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: lwalper on September 29, 2013, 01:01:58 pm
Thanks to all for your valuable input. With all the above, I have located a 390XP, on year old, "too big for me" saw listed locally for a good price -- probably better than if I went through with all the parts and stuff for the 265. So, guess I'll soon be having some 265 parts to get rid of.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: 660magnum on September 29, 2013, 01:03:05 pm
365?
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: KilliansRedLeo on September 29, 2013, 01:04:48 pm
Well, I think the case from saw again is a better deal, IMHO! If LWalper doesn't buy the bottom end I will! Am always on the look out for them because I bought out a shop going OOB and have about a dozen OEM top ends that I am holding on to.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: KilliansRedLeo on September 29, 2013, 01:06:55 pm
OK, I am interested in your 365 parts. Post a picture of the cse.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: lwalper on September 29, 2013, 05:32:57 pm
Right. 365. Let me get some pics and I'll post them here. Maybe tomorrow??
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: Cut4fun . on September 29, 2013, 05:40:33 pm
Well, I think the case from saw again is a better deal, IMHO! If LWalper doesn't buy the bottom end I will! Am always on the look out for them because I bought out a shop going OOB and have about a dozen OEM top ends that I am holding on to.

I agree.  Not from this  the seller I posted above link to.
 But another seller (not a member here) sold me a crankcase that supposedly had good crank bearings crank etc that turned smoothly etc.  Yeah right sounded like gravel in the bearings and the big end rod bearing had up down play. Being it come from a big PNW seller on FEEbay I ate it because of cost on the return shipping (offered no refund besides return case for cost without any shipping refunded).

Thats why I said getting a known good crank from you would be good.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: lwalper on September 29, 2013, 07:12:53 pm
365 pics attached

If you want the case, email me and we can work out the details.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: lwalper on September 29, 2013, 07:13:43 pm
additional pic
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: oldtimber on September 30, 2013, 10:07:48 pm
Thanks for the link to sawagain, exellent source and prices.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: lwalper on October 02, 2013, 10:49:32 am
You seem to shrug your shoulders at the 390. Does it have any particular problems?--or are you just suggesting that, for the money you'd just stick with the 365 rebuild. I was talking with the local S660 dealer today who suggested he knew a couple of people with the H390 who had recent problems with the clutch side bearing and oil seal. He (a nice guy, but, the dealer) was steering me toward a S440 or 660 for similar class performance.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: 660magnum on October 02, 2013, 10:54:37 am
It is suggested that the bearing problems stem from the use of 50:1 oil ratios?
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: KilliansRedLeo on October 02, 2013, 11:24:30 am
My understanding is the problem was the clutch side bearing. I just checked both the original 385 and the 390 both appear to now use the fix that Husqvarna came up with to fix the original problem with the 385. Essentially the clutch side case bearing was not getting enough oil to keep it lubed properly. Only problem with the fix is that it is expensive. Currently the starter side bearing is a 738220325 SKF 6203-C3 14$ the clutch side appears to be a modified 6203 503251301 $41 (bearing and seal) seal alone 503262201 is 21$.

It does not appear that the new seal can be retro fitted to the old style bearing (check attached file).

Dan Henry tells me that by tuning the saw for 32:1 mix cures the oiling issue! He further said that doing 32:1 will keep the saw going strong up to 2 years. Where the original bearing setup was only good for 4-6 months on 50:1.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: KilliansRedLeo on October 02, 2013, 11:31:43 am
OBTW I have three 385s in the shop that I am parting out that ALL had clutch side bearing failure, and an early 390 that also had clutch side bearing failure.

Have a look at this, it is one of the 385s

http://chainsawrepair.createaforum.com/husqvarna/hey-troll!-husqvarna-385390-sealed-crank-bearings/
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: KilliansRedLeo on October 02, 2013, 11:55:09 am
Not sure what spec the fix was associated with. However from what I can tell the 385 2001 spec saw used the same setup as current saws.

Perhaps someone else has the information so you can check your saw. Or you could just run 32:1 and hope for the best.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: lwalper on October 02, 2013, 03:52:41 pm
Disclaimer: I am not a dealer and have no interest in Amsoil, ...

... but I have been using their Saber 2-stroke oil at the Amsoil recommended 100:1 mix. The oil mix discussion and bearing lubrication issues is interesting. The 365 I bought sight-unseen two or three years ago and, as I recall, it sounded excessively noisy when I first cranked it -- sounded like a rattle-trap -- probably bad rod bearing then. But I've burned several gallons of fuel in it since purchase without any problems or increased noise until it just seized the other day. The top end looks almost new -- no blow-by, no hot spots, no carbon at all on either the piston, head, or plug. No oil fouling. But the rod journal bearing is badly worn and one (I forget which one now, probably the clutch side) of the side bearings felt like it had sand in it. Sounds like a common problem for a variety of models.

I think this 390 I'm looking at is a 2012 model.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: Eccentric on October 02, 2013, 04:41:48 pm
Regardless of what you do with your 365, get that 390 if you can.  100/1 is just too damn thin for an oil mix..............no matter what oil you use.  Amsoil Sabre is good oil, but I'd run it at 50/1 or thicker............as I would with any other quality synthetic.  As has been stated, the 362-372 and 385/390 saw families have a rep for surviving longer with 32/1.  Stick with that ratio in those saws.

I run Redline 2-Stroke Race Synthetic at 32/1, and have done so with various 2-stroke machines since the late 1980's.  Great stuff, and it's produced somewhat near where I live.  I've also ran Amsoil Sabre, Stihl Ultra, and Baileys WoodlandPro synthetic at 32/1 at various times.  They're all good, as is BelRay H1R.  You won't get excessive carbon deposits when running any of those oils at 32/1.  I run 92 octane non-ethanol gas in my mix.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: lwalper on October 02, 2013, 09:04:22 pm
Well, as I sit here right now considering my options I'll probably get the 390, and keep/repair the 365. I may put it in a box for today since I'll have a saw to use for right now. I've seen people with multiple saws and sometimes thought "they need to get their mess cleaned up" and then here I am starting a collection!?! ;-o

I'll begin using a thicker mix today -- probably 32:1 regardless of brand or advertising claims. I see the Redline is also recommended for 100:1 "if the engine is properly designed for reduced oil mixtures" which this one is probably NOT -- and get rid of the ethanol.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: 660magnum on October 02, 2013, 09:22:27 pm
I belong to a Model Airplane club and predominantly everyone uses redline
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: Eccentric on October 02, 2013, 09:35:41 pm
I belong to a Model Airplane club and predominantly everyone uses redline

I ran it in my 26cc Zenoah powered HPI Baja 5B 1/5 scale RC car at 25/1.  No carbon deposit or lubrication issues to speak of.  That little bugger turns some serious RPM's too.  Kart guys run it at thick ratios as well.  the Racing Kart branded oil is exactly the same as the 2-Stroke Racing synthetic.  Only the labels are different (Redline states that on their site).  The only 'negative' that I've ever experienced with Redline is that some of the guys I've cut with have complained about the smell/fumes.  Bike guys recognize the smell and smile however... 8)

I've read some internet comments stating that Redline 2-Stroke Racing synthetic doesn't provide sufficient corrosion protection (for the bearings and other steel parts) or that it's even hydroscopic (draws water).  I think that's all internet bunk.  I've torn down motorcycle and saw engines that have sat on the shelf for 20 years or more.  These engines had last ran with Redline oil.  Still had a film of oil on all the internals, and NO corrosion.  Redline states that their oil is safe to use with alcohol and gasoline/alcohol blended fuels.  Alcohol is what's hydroscopic, not the oil...
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: Eccentric on October 02, 2013, 09:41:03 pm
Well, as I sit here right now considering my options I'll probably get the 390, and keep/repair the 365. I may put it in a box for today since I'll have a saw to use for right now. I've seen people with multiple saws and sometimes thought "they need to get their mess cleaned up" and then here I am starting a collection!?! ;-o

I'll begin using a thicker mix today -- probably 32:1 regardless of brand or advertising claims. I see the Redline is also recommended for 100:1 "if the engine is properly designed for reduced oil mixtures" which this one is probably NOT -- and get rid of the ethanol.

Sounds like a good plan.  You'll need to retune your equipment when switching from 100/1 to 32/1.  The engines will run LEANER (so you'll have to richen them up) as there's less gasoline in a given volume of mix (rich/lean has to do with the gasoline/oxygen ratio).  Any quality synthetic oil will be just fine.  Most important thing is a proper tune and clean, quality fuel.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: KilliansRedLeo on October 03, 2013, 08:45:45 am
As long as it will already be in a box, send it to me. I will put it back together with a good crank, new OEM bearings, seals and gaskets for $200.00 plus return shipping.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: lwalper on October 06, 2013, 01:53:03 pm
I notice this little bit of case has been somehow broken off. Is this a "deal-killer"?--or is the case still usable?
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: Al Smith on October 06, 2013, 02:39:51 pm
The "oil wars " have gone on for decades with no end in sight .A have for years since modern mix oil came out ran at 32 to one ratio with no problems .I will admit I have ran Stihl ultra but not at 50 to 1 more like the little jug mixed with 2 gallons of gasoline rather than the 2.5 it was designed for .

Amsoil might be good stuff but for my preference I think 100 to 1 is asking for trouble .I've cooked one saw in my lifetime .That was from priming with straight gas by mistake not from the oil mix ratio .
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: lwalper on October 09, 2013, 05:45:12 pm
Cylinder image with scarring. Piston ring is also seized to the piston on one side. Gasket is as I removed it -- with about a 3/8 inch gap. Didn't know why I could never adjust the idle speed down regardless of low needle setting -- guess it was running lean sucking air through the gap. Compression check when I got it was only about 90#, but it ran great--not much pep on opening the throttle -- just sort of slowly revved up, but when it got spinning it would easily out cut my 455. Obviously a lot more saw even in bad condition.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: Cut4fun on October 09, 2013, 05:47:05 pm
IMO easy p+c clean up, re-ring, gasket and run her.
Title: Re: Can't split the case
Post by: Al Smith on October 09, 2013, 07:39:06 pm
Sicker cats than that have lived .That one from the picture doesn't look that bad .Even if you break the ring getting it out a generic ring is only 5-6 bucks .

Use a little Scotch brite pad and  kerosine and you should be able to get the tramp aluminum out of the cylinder .Fine sand clothe and kerosine  and sand the piston .A low spot won't  generally hurt you unless its large .A high spot breaks the surface tension of the oil film and will .If the ring groove is screwed up you can use a finger nail file and clean it up .

I've done a lot of half-fast fixes that are still running and running well I might .Contrary to popular belief things don't have to be perfect .Remember you're not building a 16,000 RPM alkie burning piped hot saw .