Chainsaw Repair

Husqvarna - Stihl - Poulan - Jonsered - Dolmar chainsaws and more => Echo => Topic started by: North West Farmer on November 19, 2011, 05:53:27 am

Title: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: North West Farmer on November 19, 2011, 05:53:27 am
This is my first post attempt on Chainsaw Repair so will give it a shot.

I have an ECHO CS-440EVL, very low hours, historically has started and run like a new chainsaw.  On recent use it began to behave as though is was leaning out.  Carb. adjustment attempts had little affect.

Checked the normal items, fuel filter-not too good, fuel intake hose-spongy and fragile in area below normal fuel level,  carb-not much use, but saw is several years old, both diaphragms stiff, fuel inlet screen-covered with loose, but considerable Debris, intake adapter-found with quarter inch slit in adapter neck.  As indicated, found potential issues so decided to replace fuel filter, lines, rebuild carb, cleaning thoroughly, replaced diaphragms gaskets and inlet screen, replace intake adapter.

All work went very well, everything hospital clean.  Tore down saw to the point needed to replace the items mentioned above.  Following reassembly, fueled unit and added chain oil.  Everything had gone so nicely, expectation was for good start and after carb adjustment I was looking forward to a like new chainsaw.

Upon start attempt, it popped after the first pull. There was no second pull, piston was locked in position.  Did a little careful testing and nothing was moving.  Removed carb., and in that process I noticed that a small lock washer and a small standard washer were missing off of one stud that connects the carb. body to the adapter plate.  At that point I experienced an unspeakable sinking feeling and upon further examination down the intake I could see a small dent on the piston skirt and a shallow scrape on the side of the piston.

These observations meant I needed to tear the saw down to a point at which I could determine the extent of the damage.  That is the reason for my post.  I have not torn a saw down beyond the point of changing a piston and cylinder head.  This involves removing the crank, splitting the crank case and advice in those areas would be appreciated.  I have searched the threads and was unable to locate one describing the processes mentioned above.

Presently, the saw is disassembled to the point of removing the cylinder head, the piston, the clutch assembly from the crank shaft and of course all miscellaneous items required to gain access to these last items mentioned.  Amazingly, the only thing that is definitely toast is the piston, having multiple small chunks broken off and the rings are in several peaces.  Multiple small portions of piston and ring material have been found and removed.  Nothing else appears to be damaged, but the crank is still in the crank case so problems with the bearings or in the bottom of the crank case are possible.

Now, questions and/or recommendations:
     1.  Remove the flywheel via supporting the flywheel and with brass
      hammer, tap the flywheel end of the crank to release flywheel or
      use standard two armed puller and remove the flywheel?

     2.   Procedure to separate the case.  Remove bolts, and carefully 
      bump the case with a rubber hammer to separate halves?

     3.   When reassembling the crank case using a gasket, should
     some type of gasket compound be applied to the gasket to assist
     in the assembly process and improve the final seal quality?

That is my present situation and those are the primary concerns that come to mind at this point in time. If you have any suggestions or concerns I would definitely appreciate your input.

I have been told this is the forum most likely to provide high quality information and guidance in dealing with chainsaw problems. thus my arrival on this forum and on this thread, hopefully, I have selected the appropriate thread.

Your assistance in helping me attempt to bring this very good ECHO chainsaw back to life would be sincerely appreciated.  If needed, I will attempt to provide pictures, depending upon my ability to figure out how to upload pictures to the site.

Nick, North West Farmer
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: man of stihl on November 19, 2011, 07:53:25 am
It doesn't look like you will have to seperate the crankcase or pull the flywheel to get at the piston. It is a clamshell design but the cylinder comes off by itself also. http://www.ereplacementparts.com/echo-cs440-c09112001001-c09112999999-chainsaw-parts-c-35043_35970_36771.html Go to page F.
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: brokenbudget on November 19, 2011, 09:42:38 am
if the cylinder is beyond repair, you'll need to order the whole shortblock. they don't sell the cylinder separately. only the piston.
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: North West Farmer on November 19, 2011, 10:40:02 am
man of stihl,

I have removed the top end and the piston.  The piston is toast and the cylinder walls look and feel good.  I hope to get some pictures off shortly so you can have an up close view of the top end interior.

The case needs to be split in order to evaluate any possible damage to the bottom end, in particular to determine if any debris may have gotten into the open side of the bearings.  There seems to be quite a bit of very small material in the bottom of the crank case, which might involve the bearings.

The parts I know I need and some I expect to need have been ordered from the site you recommended.

Still would like some recommendation(s) on the best procedure for splitting the case.

Thanks much for your rapid reply.

Nick, North West farmer
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: Cut4fun . on November 19, 2011, 10:58:32 am
I'm confused which is easy. Which CS440 do you have? The one that is clamshell like MOS posted or this one that shows bolt on cylinder and splitting crankcase?

Echo CS 440 EVL IPL

Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: Cut4fun . on November 19, 2011, 11:13:06 am
older echo cs440evl  http://www.acresinternet.com/cscc.nsf/ed1d619968136da688256af40002b8f7/318c26cc3a4d442988256d0c006cb2db?OpenDocument

newer echo cs440 clamshell type one  http://s30387.gridserver.com/partsDiagrams/Echo%20CS-440.pdf

Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: North West Farmer on November 19, 2011, 11:20:00 am
brokenbudget,

I believe the top end cylinder is o.k..  We have shined a bright light into the cylinder and have felt the surfaces.  As far as we can determine the top end all right.  When you see the condition of the piston and the condition of the top end, it is difficult to believe they came from the same saw.

Fortunately, when attempting to start the saw it must have only made it over a time or two.  There was a bunch of broken debris on top of the piston and some very small particulate material in the bottom of the crank case, but apparently the junk went up and down and didn't drag or cause abrasion to the cylinder walls. 

By sending some pictures to you folks, that are more in the know about chainsaw inner workings, there may be something noticed that I am not picking up on. 

Definitely don't want to put this great little saw back together without getting a real good look and the bottom end in total.  I already feel bad enough after loosing the lock washer down the intake.

The real catcher for me is, how I somehow lost the lock washer down the intake when I found the accompanying standard washer on the work bench below the location where the work was being performed on the chainsaw.

This process did a dandy job of straightening out the lock washer.  It would have taken a bunch of work to accomplish the same thing yourself.

Could you explain what "Lock this topic" means?  I have looked through the forum directions and instructions and do not recall an explanation of "Lock this topic".

Thank you for the rapid reply and assistance.

Chainsawrepair,

I saw the question you posted while I was posting to brokenbudget.  My chainsaw is a different model than the on he posted.  Mine is the CS-440EVL that is one with the bolt on cylinder and the split crank case.  Mine is the older one.

Nick, North West Farmer
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: North West Farmer on November 19, 2011, 11:25:07 am
Chainsawrepair,

I don't know if I confused the post, but I combined my answer to you with another post.  To be clear, my saw is the older one, the CS-440EVL.  Bolt on cylinder and split case.

Nick, North West Farmer
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: brokenbudget on November 19, 2011, 12:02:23 pm
AAAAAAAAAAH the EVL! ;) gotcha! i was thinking the newer plastic version ;D still both good saws.
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: Cut4fun . on November 19, 2011, 12:13:35 pm
Yep the cs440evl can be split. I dont think you will have to though.

 I had a dolmar 166 grenade when it hung a ring on a transfer on a alky racesaw. Check the bearings for play up and down movement. Take mix in squirt bottle and flush bearings good over and over. You can look at inner area. Then pour mix in crankcase and rotate crank around and around. This should flush all metal particles out.  When rotating pay attention for hard spots in bearings while turning.

To split if your really want too look at that IPL pic remove everything and make sure remove the crankcase bolts, all of them. ;)  I just use a rubber hammer to break the seal and then remove each side separately.
 Now I have never had your saw in my hands to know what will be different.

There is some husky splitting cases videos in the how to section in the ported area here.
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: Cut4fun . on November 19, 2011, 12:20:32 pm
Lock topic is when you are done with a thread and dont want nobody to post in it. It is used in the for sale section once something is no longer available.  Not needed here for this thread.

Pic of the IPL EVL I posted above, you must have overlooked it.
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: man of stihl on November 19, 2011, 12:24:51 pm
Yes, I agree with chainsawrepair, i would just flush the crankcase.
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: North West Farmer on November 19, 2011, 02:25:24 pm
Chainsawrepair,

I did find the pictures you posted and the older saw is definitely the saw I am dealing with.

Your recommendation of flushing the crank case multiple times and then repeating the process while including turning the crank shaft does make a lot of sense.  I believe I understood you indicated I should use fuel mix as the flushing agent.  If I didn't get that correctly please let me know.

At this point I will plan to proceed with the flushing process and will set the case splitting aside unless it feels like there may be problems in the bearings or that the flushing was not adequate to clear all of the debris.

Will check into the case splitting information you referred to for interests sake at this point, hopefully flushing will do the job.

All of the time and research you put into assisting me with this saw repair are sincerely appreciated.  Will be looking forward to a thread or point in time when I may be able to assist or support you in some way.  You did the bulk of the follow up for me, but all of the other input from other members will also be remembered and is appreciated.

I will give it a shot from here.  Hopefully this has helped me over the hump, so to speak, so I can repair the damage caused.  Will intend to attach some pictures to provide you with some more information on my self generated problem.

Thank you again,

Nick, North West Farmer
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: Al Smith on November 19, 2011, 05:22:58 pm
If the thing swallowed the hardware on just a start up you stand about a 95 percent chance it didn't hurt a thing .I did exactly that on a 125 Mac and it just slightly dented the area on one transfer port and scratched the piston a tiny bit .That old classic is alive and well and actually cut circles around a big Stihl recentley at a GTG so it isn't hurt a bit .

Don't get over rambuctious with trying to roll it over .It might be a thing it needs rolled backwards .Play it nice and easy now .You might need to do a little buff work on the cylinder and piston but with luck it will run yet another day and may for years to come .It's never over until the fat lady sings,the fat one with horns . ;)
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: Cut4fun on November 19, 2011, 11:10:03 pm

Nick, That is what this site is about, learning and sharing info FREEly, nothing to hide or keep private from people here.  ;D
Also cut4fun and chainsawrepair is same person. Just so you dont get confused.  ;)

I learned from your thread too. There is 2 echo 440. I knew something was up when you wanted to split case and MOS posted the clamshell 440. I searched and found the older and newer saws. So it was a win win.

If posting pics a free outside source like photobucket is easiest to use links like IMG code or you can try and resize pics small and embed here.

Post your build if you feel like it. I dont get inside echo's and wouldnt mind seeing and learning. All I have touched is a 452 and 8000 and only outside things on them. I know I didnt care for 452 set up.
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: Cut4fun on November 19, 2011, 11:13:41 pm
The complete older echo 440 IPL  http://s30387.gridserver.com/partsDiagrams/Echo%20CS-440EVL%20and%20CS-440EVLP.pdf

CS440EVL and CS440EVLP
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: North West Farmer on November 20, 2011, 06:20:11 am
cut4fun,

I was looking through the resources I had put together and at some point in time I had printed out the parts manual you provided the link for.  I acquired it from either: the Chairsawrs web site, or the Media Search site under, s30387.gridserver.com/partsDiagrams, or something like that.

Pictures are usually very helpful to me to gain a more complete understanding of many posts.  As you said, they are often of significant educational value.

It was interesting that when I began the cs-440EVL project my reaction was much like yours, the design and set up of the saws' internals seem to be much more involved and complicated than most.  From a standpoint of maintenance things are not very well located for ease of access. 

While the saw was running it was a tremendous mid size machine.  Up to the point in time that it began to react as though it was leaning out and was not adjustable, thus getting me involved deeper than planned, it was one of my favorites. A cast off from my Son, who had received it from his father-in-law.  It was heavier than his Jonsered of similar size so he passed it along to good old Dad.

For it's age it had stayed in extremely good shape due to lack of use for years and I hated to take it into the brush and beat it up so it looks almost brand new.  If it returns to life, it will get used!

Nick, North West Farmer
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: Al Smith on November 20, 2011, 06:27:43 am
Say it just dawned on me. I think I saw one of these in the dead pile at a Stihl dealers a few weeks ago .It had a tag that said the piston was scorched but it was tagged by the city parks department so who knows .The thing felt okay to me pulling over .

I really wasn't interested in it so I didn't even ask the price and it was a tad too small because I was looking for a 3 cuber for a cookie cutter and that  wasn't the one .

Probabley about the first of Dec I'll be ordering parts to rebuild a Stihl 200T for my bud the tree trimmer and a seal for mine .If interested I could investigate more and inquire the price .The saw was complete bar and all ,nothing missing .Being an Echo it's highly unlikeley anyone is going to snap it up real soon unless they were looking for parts which narrows it down because most people have no idea how the fix them .
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: North West Farmer on November 20, 2011, 02:33:32 pm
Al Smith,

I definitely would be interested in the ECHO chainsaw.  If you don't mind investigating about it a little further, especially the price they would ask for it.

It will be awhile until I complete my repair of the saw I have been posting about.  If everything goes well and I end up with a good saw once again, that would peak my interest.  If this chainsaw ends up being a tremendous pain to get up and going, interest in another saw of the same type will likely be minimized, if you know what I mean.

If it doesn't require much extra effort on your part, I am interested, if the price is reasonable, considering that some shipping cost will need to be included.

Thank you much for your interest and do let me know about chainsaw.  Some of the best chainsaws I have today came from surprising places.

Nick, North West Farmer
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: North West Farmer on January 29, 2012, 01:07:18 pm
I wanted to let the guys that have assisted me with the ECHO CS-440EVL know I have received all of the parts that should be needed to get the saw cleaned out and put back together.  I received several extra piston rings and sets of gaskets so I am all set , even if it becomes necessary to split the case, which would occur if flushing the crank case is not successful.

So much time has past since my original post you probably have forgotten about this post, but I have finally worked through other higher priority projects and the 440EVL is moving to the top of the priority list again, so I will very likely have some new questions when I get back to this saw, probably sometime in the next couple of weeks.

Heavy rain, mud, flooding,  loosing the rear brakes on my Toyota Land Cruiser and a hot water heat exchanger failure have contributed to putting this project to the back of the work bench for the last few weeks. If the rain slows down and the creeks don't rise we should be back on course.

Thank you all for the help you have provided up to this point.  I think I have figured out how Photobucket works so I should be able to provide pictures and document the process.

Looking forward to getting this nice little saw back in service.

Nick, North West Farmer
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: Cut4fun on January 29, 2012, 03:07:24 pm
NWF were you the guy looking for jonsered 910 or 920 parts?
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: North West Farmer on February 02, 2012, 05:17:09 am
Cut4fun,

That is affirmative, I am usually always on the lookout for parts that can be of use on my Jonsered 910E.  The saw is presently running great and I have accumulated some reserve wear parts, but you never know what might need some help next.

If anyone has a line on some potential usable parts for a Jonsered 910E I am interested.

Nick, North West Farmer
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: Cut4fun . on February 02, 2012, 06:45:00 am
NWF did you still need a muffler?
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: North West Farmer on February 02, 2012, 08:01:23 pm
Chainsawrepair,

I am presently operating with a muffler that is not equipped with a spark arrester.  It is in good shape, but in the State of Oregon we are supposed to utilize chainsaws that are equipped with approved spark arresters.  I have been operating only on my own land, but you are facing large fines if you are on State property without the proper equipment.  It also would not be good to accidently start a fire while not using a spark arrester where ever you are located in this state.  Issues of liability and illegal equipment would both be involved.

For the reasons mentioned I would definitely like to acquire a muffler equipped with an approved spark arrester system.  I have some spark arrester screen material and was planning to attempt to modify my old muffler by welding the screen material over the burned out area.  I would prefer to locate a descent unit that is factory equipment and not home made, if possible.

If you are aware of something that would fit my needs I am interested.

Nick, North West Farmer
Title: Re: ECHO CS-440EVL: OOPS installing new intake adapter
Post by: North West Farmer on April 27, 2012, 02:28:49 pm
To update thread participants, I have still not been able to get to the ECHO CS-440 EVL.  A reminder from The Chainsaw Repair forum showed up in my e-mail today and I realized I had left the thread hanging relative to outcomes regarding bringing the saw back to life.

Unfortunately, priorities continue to push this project back on the bench and now we are looking at spring farming activities and that is not good for completing this project.  Probably looking at the fall season to dig back into the CS-440 EVL.  Really hope I don't completely forget everything I learned about this unit, but am assuring the thread I fully intend to return to this mission when possible.

The thread members had helped greatly and took me a long way on my journey to bring the saw back to life.  Have maintained most of the resources you helped me acquire, so with luck I will be able to review the posts and bring this to completion.  Rest assured I will be returning to the forum for recommendations if the process bogs down.

I do occasionally check the Chainsaw Repair Forum to see what has been going on.  Thanks again, am expecting to report my outcome and/or will be returning for advice, if needed.

Nick, North West farmer