Chainsaw Repair
Chain - Grinders - Filing - Wood Milling - Tools - Welding - Machinist - Mowers - Tillers => Chain - Bars - Grinders - Filing => Topic started by: Sierrawoodsman on April 30, 2016, 10:34:53 pm
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Learned an awful lot during the last chain build-off. Biggest thing I learned is that you can't expect to put in a just a little time and expect to do well.
So today I had a little spare time and decided to practice some of the things that you guys did to your race chain to make it so fast. I know the rakers are too low on this chain to begin with but I tried some of the other things like tunneling, rivet thinning, dog boning, tail clipping, raker thinner and shorter, Etc. got a few pictures here let me know what you guys think it is my first time trying a lot of these things. All of these pics are of the same cutter, just at different shot at different angles.
Critique is welcome.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160501/dc7f1a9e3bea150e805641634ff67d22.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160501/e06b296978540592789bbbc8b366c2e2.jpg) after tunneling(rear view)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160501/137891fdea9c7b3592b50e838e53fdd9.jpg) before tunneling (rear view)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160501/c5246535f6427ca45ec6d388c3dd9336.jpg)rivet thinning- too much?
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160501/1f86d46acc13af6dd19e75d56c7d329c.jpg) outside of cutter tail clip
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It's too far for rivets when they fly apart.
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I've had race chains with rivets flush with the straps. Only thing is they get hard to drive through the wood when they start moving around.
My fastest 3ci chain had it all done like that and was about 2 tenths or might have been 3 tenths faster then my other 3ci chain that didnt have any chassis work. You times that by 3 cuts and that extra time adds up quick.
In the end, IMO it still all comes down to the front of those cutters. Once you know you have one that is a good cutter and worth the extra effort you can see what all gains the chassis work and tunneling etc gets you.
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I guess what I am saying take a chain you know the time of with good front cutters filed. Then start doing all the other stuff to see what you are gaining.
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The 325 race chains and the different chassis work they both had. Sorry my pics suk. Maybe they will post better when they get them back.
I cant remember what all CG said, but 3000 made a list of what he did.
3000 FPS What I did to my chain.
I clipped the back of the cutter.
I tunneled the back of the cutter a little bit.
I thinned the outside edge of the top plate of the cutter.
I did a square grind on a Simington grinder.
I thinned the rivet heads.
I ground down the top edge of all the links of the chain at an angle to make go through the kerf better.
I cleaned up all the gullets and the links.
I did take a stone and used it a little not much on the top and side of the cutter.
I never used a file on any of it.
The rakers I shortened and thinned the inside edge only.
I also dropped the rakers a little. I only eye balled them.
L to R CG 3000 SW chains.
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/262alky/325racechains%20001_zpszttqjcmd.jpg)
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/262alky/325racechains%20003_zpsft1kyhoj.jpg)
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I see what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense. I thought your pictures were decent enough Kevin,If you look closely you can see quite a bit of detail. It was nice that 3000 made up that list, I did not have any idea you could do that many things to a race chain. "Got me a nice big slice of humble pie".
Do you think you're going to do 3/8 or .404 for the next one?
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You can do some more tunneling into the corner.
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Here's a list of what I did on the .325 chain.
Clipped the heal
Dogboned and rounded the links
Thinned the rivets
Thinned and shaped the rakers
Squarefield the cutter
Cleaned the gullets
Stoned
Set the rakers
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With regard to stoning. I've been able to find very little information on this. Is this just further "smoothing" the rivets or is it actually do something to the cutter too. when I "YouTubed" it I could fine only one very short video that Mike did, but it wasn't very telling. He was using one of those fancy chain vices. Would you mind going into detail with how you do that? Do you use a Japanese Waterstone or something, and if so what sort grit stone.Do you do it with the chain mounted on the bar/saw-(technique)?
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Stoning a chain is G14 Top Secret information... :)
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With regard to stoning. I've been able to find very little information on this. Is this just further "smoothing" the rivets or is it actually do something to the cutter too. when I "YouTubed" it I could fine only one very short video that Mike did, but it wasn't very telling. He was using one of those fancy chain vices. Would you mind going into detail with how you do that? Do you use a Japanese Waterstone or something, and if so what sort grit stone.Do you do it with the chain mounted on the bar/saw-(technique)?
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Your doing the sides of the cutter. I use a wetstone. I thought mopar said he's used a file. Thers some info on it in the fhc squarefiling thread I think.
The objective is to bring all the cutters in line so your not waisting power cutting unnecessary kerf. Look at the sides of the cookies. A normal chain will leave them rough. With a well stoned chain it will be smooth.
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One of the square filing thread here. Pretty sure stoning the cutters was mentioned there too. http://chainsawrepair.createaforum.com/chain/hand-square-filing/
Most folks use a knife type sharping stone. Doing 3-5 cutters at a time.
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Do you think you're going to do 3/8 or .404 for the next one?
We have done 3 cube and 3120 chains in 3/8 in past. There was talk of doing a 404 since we never tried that chain.
Who knows what the future holds. I know the timing of doing this rd 3 was all wrong for 75% of the folks though. So we need to make sure on the time like rd 1.
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Yes you can do it with a bar mounted on a old case with a electric motor with chain on backwards for stoning too.
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Sierrawoodsman this is only my second time doing a race chain myself so I too am learning just like you. One of the things I did I had not even heard of
before but I went ahead and tried it any ways. Kevin did some serious competitions for quit awhile and he has some good ideas about timing with a good sharp cutter and then doing all the other work and then timing again to see how much you have gained.
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Yes kevin has a good point about that. it makes a lot of sense to do that so you can understand how much gain you can expect from doing each of those little things.I'm going to try that next go around. I still can't for the life of me figure out more of the square did beat stock round.I think next time I may submit a stock chain as well. i'm thinking there must be some variability in stock chains too. Also, Was that a soft wood or hardwood cant? I just remember him saying that it was a beam that he had from his old barn that was probably from the 1800s.
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Yes kevin has a good point about that. it makes a lot of sense to do that so you can understand how much gain you can expect from doing each of those little things.I'm going to try that next go around. I still can't for the life of me figure out more of the square did beat stock round.I think next time I may submit a stock chain as well. i'm thinking there must be some variability in stock chains too. Also, Was that a soft wood or hardwood cant? I just remember him saying that it was a beam that he had from his old barn that was probably from the 1800s.
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I believe that he was jokeing about the barn beam.
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Not much time to work at it today, did finish off the rivet thinning (as far as I felt comfortable) and tried out the stoning using a fairly course 250 grit Japanese Water Stone. Just put the chain on the bar and put it under some pretty good tension, then gave about 10 strokes (aft fwd direction only) or so and worked my way around both sides. I could definitely feel that it seemed to be "smoother" has the stone glided across on stroke number 10 then it did on number one. Not quite sure how much to take off but you can see how the stone Took off some of the outside of the tooth and the Raker at the same time. Also unsure if going to a finer grit would be of any benefit. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160502/0d6bbe79696f32a325a55761cc95bc3f.jpg)
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It felt very sharp afterward
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You did a lot more than I do. 2 or 3 strokes is plenty.
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I'll run it in the morning and see if those cookies smooth out.
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It will be smooth. You can get too narrow and the bar binds in the wood.
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I do 3 strokes and only on the upper 1/3 of the cutter. Make it too thin and it turns into an Art Martin chain...
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Yes kevin has a good point about that. it makes a lot of sense to do that so you can understand how much gain you can expect from doing each of those little things.I'm going to try that next go around. I still can't for the life of me figure out more of the square did beat stock round.I think next time I may submit a stock chain as well. i'm thinking there must be some variability in stock chains too. Also, Was that a soft wood or hardwood cant? I just remember him saying that it was a beam that he had from his old barn that was probably from the 1800s.
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I believe that he was jokeing about the barn beam.
LOL yep that beam was sold and inside a house now to be used as a fire mantel.
Cants were white pine.
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Going to repost some info here from a old site I helped run.
Ive seen some racechains with the outside of the tooth lightly grinded, i suppose its for a more square tooth and a narrower cut. I was wondering how to do this? I have heard or putting it backwards on a saw and the use of a stone,but sounds dangerous to me
Are you talking about stoning the cutters or actually thinning the cutters from the outside?
Stoning the cutters
I was told long ago to use about a 8" flat diamond sharping stone.
A cheap 8" whetstone will do it for you.
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Some info from troutfisher a member here.
Some good solid info here, pics of tunneled out cutters, ground rivets, dog boning tie straps......
http://www.madsens1.com/PDF/RacingTechfacts_93099.pdf
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Another level I wouldnt worry about for a long long time.
Thinning cutters from the inside and then adding oregon 76LG drive links.
Just saving troutfisher Aric pics of thinned inside cutter.
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w195/Troutfisher_photo/100_0615.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w195/Troutfisher_photo/100_0616.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w195/Troutfisher_photo/100_0618.jpg)
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Found a ole post of mine from 2011. Says the thinned chain was only 1 tenth quicker then my #2 non thinned chain.
repost = My best 3ci thinned cutters full out lightened grinded down rivets and polished smooth chain was only 1 tenth faster then my best 3ci non thinned chain that didnt have any other work to it besides cutters ( no raker work or anything to look like a stock square filed work chain).
It still comes down to that cutter file job. I seen nice looking race chain that wouldnt cut for chit from same guy that could turn out a good one IF he wanted too. Lot of culled chains to get to those true fast race chains for the show.
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John Reilly shows before stoning chain cutters and after video.
https://youtu.be/xTIRnnmYe90
https://youtu.be/AGtbQfOVSSg
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John Reilly shows his way of stoning cutters
https://youtu.be/takCJ8aXIQc
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Our very own Mike Lee made a video I missed on stoning chain
https://youtu.be/CVxp6ZjiLms
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Thanks Kevin for all the additional info, that last video was the only one I was able to find on my own. Riley's videos they are quite impressive He definitely knows what he's doing. He can file some wicked Chain, As well as hopping up the chainsaws themselves.Is he a member on one of the chainsaw sites?
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That was some great info there Kevin thanks for posting.
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Thanks Kevin for all the additional info, that last video was the only one I was able to find on my own. Riley's videos they are quite impressive He definitely knows what he's doing. He can file some wicked Chain, As well as hopping up the chainsaws themselves.Is he a member on one of the chainsaw sites?
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Alright now we expect a first place out of you next time.
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I'm certainly going to give it my best shot,and put some more time into it next go-round. I certainly won't be underestimating you guys.
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Stoning certainly did smooth things out a lot. "Before"on the left, and after on the right.
Oblique lighting really brings out the surface texture and you can really see the difference.(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160502/832d92ce593a6dc0ce0e3dcd975b0384.jpg)
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Still a little fuzzy but was smoother than before. I never could get a smooth cookie with a grinder vs hand filing.
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thanks for the pics & description.chain looks agressive TT
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Just some old Carlton chain. The rakers were already too low on it, making it overly aggressive.so I decided to go ahead and use it for practice on some of the other things you can do. Got a lot of good feedback. great group of guys here that are willing to share their knowledge and help.
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Just finished it up the practice.
Here's a list of the things I did, many for the first time:
1: Square ground cutters back to second rivet
2: Thinned rivets .002" approx height.
3:Tunneled out under top plate, And thinned sideplate.
4: Clipped tail-(hdg-6), and feathered ground underneath it for additional chip clearance-(Dremel).
5: shortened and thinned rakers-left raked height unchanged-(hdg-6/Dremel).
6: Dog Bone straps using 3/16 round file.
7: Blended (thinned) tie strap tops at angle easier to go through wood (Dremel-stone).
8: Hand Stoned Cutter side plates-(250/800 grit Whetstone)
9: Leather Honed cutter side plates to near mirror finish by mounting saw chain backwards and running saw at fairly low speed 30 seconds. (Wood mounted leather hone and a
.030"spacer.
Learned a lot and gained a great appreciation for how much time and effort goes into one of these Race Chains. Hope to
Bring a little better competition on the next round.
Here's a few pics and video:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160508/96e04d4243fb605f2158e5aee782e38c.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160508/898fbc6fa22b653d94869e9d879dd3fc.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160508/67f06216c168a1c398ae4ac2921abea6.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160508/d5635556d7d10be445441024ed126e3c.jpg)
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Final leather strop.
https://youtu.be/7NGHl0_iUEE
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You know I think you got it. Pretty nice looking chain.
I think you will bring some serious competition on the next race chain build.
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Just finished it up the practice.
Here's a list of the things I did, many for the first time:
1: Square ground cutters back to second rivet
2: Thinned rivets .002" approx height.
3:Tunneled out under top plate, And thinned sideplate.
4: Clipped tail-(hdg-6), and feathered ground underneath it for additional chip clearance-(Dremel).
5: shortened and thinned rakers-left raked height unchanged-(hdg-6/Dremel).
6: Dog Bone straps using 3/16 round file.
7: Blended (thinned) tie strap tops at angle easier to go through wood (Dremel-stone).
8: Hand Stoned Cutter side plates-(250/800 grit Whetstone)
9: Leather Honed cutter side plates to near mirror finish by mounting saw chain backwards and running saw at fairly low speed 30 seconds. (Wood mounted leather hone and a
.030"spacer.
Learned a lot and gained a great appreciation for how much time and effort goes into one of these Race Chains. Hope to
Bring a little better competition on the next round.
Here's a few pics and video:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160508/96e04d4243fb605f2158e5aee782e38c.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160508/898fbc6fa22b653d94869e9d879dd3fc.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160508/67f06216c168a1c398ae4ac2921abea6.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160508/d5635556d7d10be445441024ed126e3c.jpg)
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Nicely done. Did the honeing make a difference in cut time?
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I didn't time it yet and ran out of daylight plus it's raining. I will try to do some further tests tomorrow in the wood. I would like to compare my fastest work chain that I submitted to this race chain, Although this race practice is 20 inches long versus 16 inches. could be a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. I don't know how much additional drag that 4 inches makes. It will be interesting to do for fun though. I'll post a video after I do it tomorrow.
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The honing definitely smooth things out further on the cookie. I believe if the rakers we're set where they should be it would appear almost as if it was sanded smooth, but I still think they're a little too low to begin with
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Be careful weaking the strap and drive link in that area. Chain will come apart in a cut.
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One that was cut into to far in that area in the PS 3/8LP chain build off Rd 1.
Pic
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/videos/buildoffchains%20003_zpsdrf0bgcg.jpg)
Video
3rd cut listen for pop. stock 39cc so not over powered at all.
https://youtu.be/ZhgUBBw1TdY
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When you do your filing for the dog bone work do not make it at an angle but more straight across. You will not weaken the link so much that way like Kevin is referring to.
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That link is the worst case- (weakest link). I agree it's too far. Right now it's on Mastered 550.
That 550 has even more pep my 346 did that Randy did for me. Good chance of it flying apart.
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Well I figured I might as well run it, and if it breaks it breaks. Wouldn't be the first time I broke a chain.
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Here's some comparison videos I did today....all four .325" chains were run on the 550 XP running a seven pin rim. I wish I had an untouched factory loop of LPX/RSC That I could have tested against, but I don't, so these chains represent the most meaningful comparisons that I can make with the chains I have on hand.
First video: 66 DL sq work(LPX)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160509/ecc101487359cd455698f4c2415d226d.jpg)
https://youtu.be/7NGEJv4_Hzo
1st cut: 4.10
2nd cut: 4.36
3rd cut: 4.43
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Second video: 66 DL sq work RSC-(fastest chain I submitted in the last build off)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160509/86f97e840b2a17cf5b68b9c370cd857e.jpg)
https://youtu.be/NOuzRApknH4
1st cut: 4.21
2nd cut: 4.46
3rd cut: 4.02
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Third video: 81 DL sq work-LPX
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160509/0aae29f88be625f2728defa73cf43dda.jpg)
https://youtu.be/sjfB6UdHwKU
1st cut: 4.28
2nd cut: 4.25
3rd cut:4.20?
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Fourth and final video: .81 DL Carlton practice race chain Which has been the topic of this thread:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160509/a336d3c10a0734a4c98b50cb0701c05f.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160509/e967ef2bdfd1cc46f260cdaed0fc7eb6.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160509/3cf4db8a4e22080367a26b0ffbd20ad8.jpg)
https://youtu.be/GsZ6cp6MU9Q
1st cut: 3.62
2nd cut: 3.83
3rd cut: 3.68
4th cut:3.71
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I know it's apples and oranges comparison, but just for the heck of it I decided to see how that chain compared to the Mastered boob'd 562xp running a factory loop of 3/8 LGX:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160509/5767b891addb174d9b2e13f906d60b6f.jpg)
https://youtu.be/98-vVYuXLjs
1st cut: 3.29
2nd cut: 3.30
3rd cut:3.48
4th cut: 2.95? (Boy that New LGX stretches a lot-lucky I didn't throw it.)
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Holy crap :o . I thought you were on top of your chains before and looks like you got it by both reins now. 8)
Another one to watch out for in the chain build off rounds. ;)
Guess I can go back to hiding in my hole with my non filing butt. :-[
Keep up the good work. You caught on fast.
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Thanks for all the help Kevin. I learned an awful lot from you guys. Race Sure is a hell of a lot of work for a few tenths of a second!
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Thanks for all the help Kevin. I learned an awful lot from you guys. Race Sure is a hell of a lot of work for a few tenths of a second!
When raced I was one of the slow guys looking for tenths. I remember the top guys out there that was searching for the hundredths difference.
Yeah they were that good in testing their chains.
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Filed and lightly stoned
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160509/1b64619fa0db8e224be03f9a2ca6a80b.jpg)
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Filed and lightly stoned
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160509/1b64619fa0db8e224be03f9a2ca6a80b.jpg)
Looks smooth!
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Looks smooth. 8)
Better quit cutting those knots with a good chain Mike. ;)
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Mike that box show up to look at?
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Looks smooth. 8)
Better quit cutting those knots with a good chain Mike. ;)
That's not a real good one. A work chain with stoning.
There's so many to sort through I'll get to it tonight or in the morning. 30+ boxes and envelopes in 10 days
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Started work on the 72 DL 3/8 race chain for RD#4. Still have some Chassis work to do. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160718/0c34f3cc164e177b600fc9d7ec447249.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160718/192eab45b9198859cd70f440afefbfdd.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160718/827fd0d1f54848d3330d99d19a2a5a6b.jpg)
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Looking mean.
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Yep that looks like a fast chain alright. Nice looking work.
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I'm calling the 83 DL 404" done too. I Feel like I'm getting a little better each time I do one of these. Had a good 12 hours into this one. Under close scrutiny I can still see some slight beaks. Is this a big deal for a race chain?
Critique is welcome.
Inside fwd view:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/2d98c435f3cb7d01a4b64adc484c800a.jpg)
Raker thinning/Tie strap bevel:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/57d70edfc7533e791304d69979c2416c.jpg)
Outside view: stoning/tail clip/rivet thinning
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/ef00bb43f2c6aafd8c60ba7102cde2cf.jpg)
Rear view:
Cutter tunneling
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/6dd0cd90f230cf516dab5d6a97fb241c.jpg)
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That is some very nice looking work. I think everyone who is entering needs to bring their A game if they plan on competing with what I see.
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Some fine looking work.
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Thanks man, that means a lot, especially coming from the Rd#3 Champion! Really just trying to follow the fine examples you guys set. Thanks for all the guidance
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Lots of time in it already.
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Had the time to throw at it, I figured working in a cool garage beats stacking firewood in this dreadful heat. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160725/aec897355584e6592969caa8038925c0.jpg)
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Seen 100 in the barn shop garage. 99 on outside temps day ago. 86 inside at work. :-X
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Ouch. I will not complain about the heat here then.