Author Topic: pioneer 650  (Read 520 times)

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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: pioneer 650
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2017, 06:50:41 pm »
By looking at the 25 cent price on the front cover of that parts manual I would think it's from the mid to late 1960's.
So I'm thinking by 1976 the 650 probably had a modern 2 or 3 piece crank without the bolt on caps on the lower con rod bearing.
But my brothers Mac 101 kart saws have rod caps (I'm positive if my memory is correct) and with a little weight balance welded to the crank those Macs screamed past 16K. ;D
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Offline 1manband

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Re: pioneer 650
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2017, 07:41:14 pm »
piston so far.

2.246, while the bore looks to be 2.252.

no luck sourcing a new one yet.  if i cannot find a new one going to send this one out for some work.
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Offline 1manband

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Re: pioneer 650
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2017, 07:49:43 pm »
port mapped the jug and measured the con rod.

piston needle bearing is shot.  believe it is a timken brand bearing, but cannot find my magnifying glass to read the numbers on it.

cannot remember what this king of bearing is called, but think it is a high load/low speed type?  hope it easy to find at a bearing supply house.
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Offline 1manband

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Re: pioneer 650
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2017, 07:34:44 pm »
no progress in the last few days.  working some long hours.

my plans for the piston will most likely ruin it before it goes up and down at all.  hahaha.

side note:  put a pair of rusty calipers (no dial) into the vinegar jug....forgot about them.  parts on them dissolved.  poof.
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: pioneer 650
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2017, 08:58:34 am »
1manband, any potential in the 650 being a race saw? ;)
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Offline 1manband

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Re: pioneer 650
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2017, 08:38:16 pm »
1manband, any potential in the 650 being a race saw? ;)

...do not know.  also do not know what you consider fast/race worthy.

if you throw enough money and time at something, sometimes it works out.  everything is fast for the first 2 weeks.  that is not my plan.  will toss some money into it though.

baby steps for me.  have to put the stock measurements into the lotto machine to be able to first compare it to a more modern saw of similar motor size.  will concentrate my $ and efforts on the piston to get it into shape.  if luck is with me and it works, will hopefully lead me to some options.

just thoughts on the following, i am not a chainsaw guy so take it all with a grain of salt. some things that might not allow going crazy with this motor: iron sleeve, don't think a large overbore is possible to run anything but a custom piston.  re-sleeving maybe an option, but the aluminum around the liner kind of thin. maybe nik plating would do it.  piston is the first hurdle.  over bore would also diminish the size of the transfer ports because they breath off the base.  big end crank has a split cage bearing...maybe one piece crank could replace to run some kind of off the shelf piston. con rod little end has a big hole, piston options again are issue because so far cannot find a bearing that can neck down enough to run a more common size pin.

again, maybe all these things can be overcome easily with something i'm not seeing.  thinking so far that there must be better platforms to start from.

i'm digging this saw. just making it mine.  hahaha. fun.
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: pioneer 650
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2017, 10:27:41 pm »
Always thought you were a saw guy.
The 650 has alot of similarities to a 105cc Stihl 090 . Same 40 mm stroke . Cast iron liner like on my YZ125 can be oversized many times.
Whether you want it for a firewooder or a tuned pipe power bucker in a hot saw race. It has good  ergonomic potential for both.
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Offline 1manband

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Re: pioneer 650
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2017, 07:25:05 pm »
Always thought you were a saw guy.
The 650 has alot of similarities to a 105cc Stihl 090 . Same 40 mm stroke . Cast iron liner like on my YZ125 can be oversized many times.
Whether you want it for a firewooder or a tuned pipe power bucker in a hot saw race. It has good  ergonomic potential for both.

too many different motors out there to learn for me to be a saw guy.

thanks.....will have to look into the 090.   

that's the rub.  for the yz, they make oversize pistons up to 0.080.  has a thicker liner.  great platform with cheap off the shelf parts.

my saw is past the wear limit, at least for me......0.006" after i hone it it will be a no-go with the stock piston.  there are no 2.25" (57mm) oversize that i can find that have a 5/8" wrist pin hole.  cannot find even a new stock one.  have to send the the piston out to get it built up to get things tighter.  still checking bearing listings to see if i could get by with running some other piston with smaller pin, but no luck so far.

-joe
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Offline 1manband

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Re: pioneer 650
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2017, 07:48:25 pm »
whoever designed this motor was one smart cookie.  the following was easily seen by some, but i catch on slow.

IMO, they knew that the ring ends would snag on the ports if they were too large, so they got around it in a cool way.  slanted the edge of the piston.  as the slant passes by the port, it opens the port sooner making these tiny ports flow like they were a bit larger.  funky head had to be.

specific time areas taken at 2500 rpm, because 5000 is max rpm of motor listed on acres.

note: keep your eye on the jennings recommended numbers on the right for an eye opener.

photo 1 = piston

photo 2 = time areas taken from top flat of piston crown as it passes to open the exh and trans ports.

photo 3 = time areas taken mid-way down the slanted edge as it " " " " " " "

photo 4 = time areas taken of bottom of slant as it " " " "

my guess is that it actually starts flowing somewhere between the flat top and mid-way positions.  what do you guys think about all this?
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Re: pioneer 650
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2017, 08:35:08 pm »
What does that slanted top above the piston do to the direction of flow.   
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